YTSEJAM Digest 7016 Today's Topics: 1) cellular destiny by "Christopher Oates" 2) Re: Scientific Method by Steve Chew 3) Portnoy & Overkill pics by "Gilberto Bressan Junior" 4) RE: Portnoy & Overkill pics by "Souter, Jan-Michael" 5) Re: Portnoy & Overkill pics by Mike Shetzer ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 00:30:37 -0500 From: "Christopher Oates" To: Subject: cellular destiny Message-ID: >The way I see it, it's not important whether a bunch of cells bears any >resemblance to a full grown human. What is important is that, given >time, that bunch of cells WILL become a human beign. That's why >abortion is so wrong, it denies this "proto-human" it's right to have a >shot at life too. An interesting idea, but wrong. That collection of cells, left on its own, will die just as surely as a blood sample, left on its own, will dry up. The challenge in all artificial fertilization efforts is not in how to fertilize the egg, but how to get the resulting cells to "become a human being" as you put it. It says to me pretty clearly that the mass of cells has no awareness, no desire to push itself forward and grow into a human being. It's not a living organism. An amoeba is a single cell that can grow and replicate itself, but beyond that it can change its environment to better its chances of having enough fuel to keep going (I.e. it can eat) -- Can a human embryo do that? I just saw Skadz's post, so this is my final 2 cents on the subject. I keep trying to listen to "Subsurface" but can't really get into it yet. I'm enjoying too much Dreamscape, Superior, and a band I've never seen discussed here, "A.C.T". ~Chris ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 13:04:42 -0500 From: Steve Chew To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Scientific Method Message-ID: >The reason that most people who are against abortion are against it >seems to be because they believe it is murder of a human life. But >scientific method proves that a human embryo is NOT a human life, but merely >a conglomeration of cells. So according to science, we could "safely" abort >an embryo before it becomes a fetus and starts developing organs, right? >Because up until that point, it's just a bunch of cells dividing and >dividing some more. > Scientific method?? It's unclear how you would apply that to determining if a fetus is a human life. The scientific method involves developing a hypothesis, creating an experiment to test it, conducting the experiment and examining the results. The problem is that your hypothesis assumes the answer you're looking for (that in the first few weeks a bunch of cells couldn't be human). There's not really a good way to apply the scientific method to such an issue because you have to first define what is "human" and you're going to get massive disagreement over that. >However, where does one draw the line? At what point should you NOT be able >to kill that parasitic organism that's inside the woman's uterus? I think >that based on the best evidence they have, that science has come up with a >pretty good way of determining it: You can't really call it a human life >until it would be able to actually live on its own. So they determined that >the end of the second trimester is where they draw the line; before that the >baby has no chance of being able to live on its own, so there's no way you >could call it a human. > Science had little to do with determining that line, it was determined through law. It is medically possible for a fetus to survive after 24 weeks, which is already below the 28th week which marks the end of the 2nd trimester. So, obviously viability isn't the only factor being used to determine when you can have an abortion. Someday it may be possible for those week-old cells to survive outside the womb, but does that mean that all abortions should be illegal? Also, if you think a 1 year old baby could survive "on it's own" then you haven't raised any children yet. :-) If you want to read a superb article that discusses all sides of the abortion debate in a very rational, objective manner, then read this: http://www.philosophynow.org/archive/articles/36goldblatt.htm Steve ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 19:24:09 -0200 From: "Gilberto Bressan Junior" To: , Subject: Portnoy & Overkill pics Message-ID: <003a01c4c6a2$7677c9a0$8b00000a@giba> Heya folks here's some pictures of Portnoy and Overkill at the Helloween Gig in NY http://www.dementiaradio.com/gallery/mpoverkill c-ya Gilberto www.dreamtheater.com.br ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Nov 2004 15:33:59 -0600 From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" Subject: RE: Portnoy & Overkill pics Message-ID: Thanks Gilberto !! Damn, Portnoy chopped his hair.............. -----Original Message----- From: Gilberto Bressan Junior [mailto:email_address_removed Heya folks here's some pictures of Portnoy and Overkill at the Helloween Gig in NY http://www.dementiaradio.com/gallery/mpoverkill c-ya Gilberto www.dreamtheater.com.br ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Nov 2004 18:27:17 -0500 From: Mike Shetzer To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Portnoy & Overkill pics Message-ID: <00a801c4c6b3$a6b54640$9b00a8c0@mizz> And his long-time-goatee! I thought for a second this was from years and years ago... ----- Original Message ----- From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Tuesday, November 09, 2004 4:29 PM Subject: RE: Portnoy & Overkill pics > Thanks Gilberto !! Damn, Portnoy chopped his hair.............. > > > -----Original Message----- > From: Gilberto Bressan Junior [mailto:email_address_removed > > > Heya folks > > here's some pictures of Portnoy and Overkill at the Helloween Gig in NY > > http://www.dementiaradio.com/gallery/mpoverkill > > > c-ya > Gilberto www.dreamtheater.com.br > > > ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 7016 ************************** === Contributions to ytsejam: ytsejam@torchsong.com === === Send requests to: ytsejam-request@torchsong.com === === More information at: http://www.dreamt.org/local/ytsejam.php === === Brought by the ghost of ytsejam@arastar.coms past === === Reach the owner of this list at: ytsejam-owner@torchsong.com ===