YTSEJAM Digest 6918 Today's Topics: 1) "Getting" music by Steve Chew 2) RE: "Getting" music by "Souter, Jan-Michael" 3) Re: The pain of the odd beat by "Robert Taylor" 4) Re: The pain of the odd beat by email_address_removed 5) Re: The pain of the odd beat by "Nikolaos Sakkos" 6) Re: The pain of the odd beat by Damon Fibraio 7) Re: The pain of the odd beat by Mike Shetzer 8) Re: The pain of the odd beat by email_address_removed 9) Re: Superior Live, other things by "Rick Rosinski" 10) Re: The pain of the odd beat by Damon Fibraio ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 13:30:00 -0400 From: Steve Chew To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: "Getting" music Message-ID: Dave wrote: > >Well, my girlfriend and I broke up yesterday. The last straw was when >she walked in and rudely shut off my CD player while I was listening >to Spock's Beard. Her comment was, "I can't stand another minute of >this f'ing crap music." Time to find another girlfriend. > Sorry to hear that, Dave. >The thing is, I hear this all the time from prog-rock fans: "If I >could only find a girl who liked this music, I could be happy." >[...] > I'd say that it's mostly wishful thinking for someone to assume he'll happy if his girl likes prog. There are always going to be different tastes/opinions that you'll have to work out -- the key is to be able to respect each other despite disagreeing. >This has happened with at least three of my girlfriends, some of my >friends, and countless people who I barely know. If I should put on >a Dream Theater song that's easy, in 4/4 or 8/4, they might not >like it, but they can take it. But as SOON as I put on something in >an odd time like 5/4 or 7/4, its like they become possessed by a >demon and must rid their ears of this evil sounding music. To me, >if I hear a song with time changes, unpredictable rhythms, and an >odd beat, THAT is exactly what makes me like the song. To others, those >same traits seem to actually make them nervous, angry, even violent. > Here's an interesting quote about music which may explain why it takes a while to "get" certain styles of music (because you have to become good at listening and predicting). Perhaps most people haven't been exposed to odd time signatures and so they can't predict what's coming up next which makes them uncomfortable. It also may explain why some of us get bored by "pop" music. Steve "What is the soloist doing when he attempts to "build"? Actually the ideal process hardly ever takes place--that is, it is hardly ever the case that a conscientious soloist plays a thinking solo for a hard-listening hearer--but when this does happen, the key process is memory. The soloist has to establish for the listener what the important POINT, the motif if you like, is, and then show as much as he can of what it is that he sees in that motif, extending the relationships of it to the basic while never giving the feeling that he has forgotten it. In other words, I believe that it should be a basic principle to use repetition, rather than variety--but not too much. The listener is constantly making predictions; actual infinitesimal predictions as to whether the next event will be a repetition of something, or something different. The player is constantly either confimring or denying these predictions in the listener's mind. As nearly as we can tell (Kraehenbuehl at Yale and I), the listener must come out right about 50% of the time--if he is too successful in predicting, he will be bored; if he is too unsuccessful, he will give up and call the music "disoganized." Thus if the player starts a repetitive pattern, the listener's attention drops away as soon as he has successfully predicted that it is going to continue. Then, if the thing keeps going, the attention curve comes back up, and the listener becomes interested in just how long the pattern is going to continue. Similarly, if the player never repeats anything, no matter how tremendous an imagnation he has, the listener will decide that the game is not worth playing, that he is not going to be able to make any predections right, and also stops litening. Too much difference is sameness: boring. Too much sameness is boring--but also different once in a while." -Richmond Browne ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:47:41 -0500 From: "Souter, Jan-Michael" To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" Subject: RE: "Getting" music Message-ID: May want to check out a Spock's Beard concert, or TransAtlantic, or Neil Morse, etc for a new girlfriend :)) -----Original Message----- From: Steve Chew [mailto:email_address_removed Dave wrote: > >Well, my girlfriend and I broke up yesterday. The last straw was when >she walked in and rudely shut off my CD player while I was listening >to Spock's Beard. Her comment was, "I can't stand another minute of >this f'ing crap music." Time to find another girlfriend. > Sorry to hear that, Dave. >The thing is, I hear this all the time from prog-rock fans: "If I >could only find a girl who liked this music, I could be happy." >[...] > I'd say that it's mostly wishful thinking for someone to assume he'll happy if his girl likes prog. There are always going to be different tastes/opinions that you'll have to work out -- the key is to be able to respect each other despite disagreeing. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 10:43:49 -0700 From: "Robert Taylor" To: Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat Message-ID: <1967101c46837$ca11a320$message_id_removed> I guess I lucked out in the girlfriend/wife department. My wife doesn't listen to prog (she actually largely listens to Christian music such as Michael W. Smith). However, she does not mind the prog metal I listen to, and actually has grown to like some of it. It helps that listening to music isn't as big a part of her life as is mine, so my musical tastes can trump what we listen to most of the time (just look at our CD collection - she's got about 20-30 CDs, and I have 466 :) ). So I guess since it's hard to find a girl who loves prog metal, you may just have to look for one that can tolerate it. :) However, my twin brother's girlfriend seems to be more on the side you describe - actively disliking prog metal. And she, unlike my wife, is a big music fan in general (just not metal), so it has been a source of tension for my brother. We'll see if they can overcome it. :) Rob > Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 12:39:50 +0200 > From: "David Dombrowsky" > To: ytsejam@torchsong.com > Subject: The pain of the odd beat > Message-ID: > > Well, my girlfriend and I broke up yesterday. The last straw was when > she walked in and rudely shut off my CD player while I was listening > to Spock's Beard. Her comment was, "I can't stand another minute of > this f'ing crap music." Time to find another girlfriend. > > The thing is, I hear this all the time from prog-rock fans: "If I > could only find a girl who liked this music, I could be happy." This > got me thinking... what is it about this music that not only do people > not like it, but there is a large number of people who will activly > HATE it. And why do the people who like this music see it as such > a yardstick for judging a person's personality? > > This has happened with at least three of my girlfriends, some of my > friends, and countless people who I barely know. If I should put on > a Dream Theater song that's easy, in 4/4 or 8/4, they might not > like it, but they can take it. But as SOON as I put on something in > an odd time like 5/4 or 7/4, its like they become possessed by a > demon and must rid their ears of this evil sounding music. To me, > if I hear a song with time changes, unpredictable rhythms, and an > odd beat, THAT is exactly what makes me like the song. To others, those > same traits seem to actually make them nervous, angry, even violent. > > Am I on crack? Am I the only one to notice this? > > -Dave ---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 23:24:04 +0300 From: email_address_removed To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat Message-ID: To me the odd beats, and so on, in prog aren't the important thing. They're just one way to reach more areas of music. Make sense? :) I mean there can be prog without 11/8's in my opinion. I always thought this was a fairly common way of thinking amongst prog fans. And by the way, the reason why most people that I know dislike prog(metal), is because of the screams and too long guitar-keybord-unison-solos. :) Not the strange rhythmes. -------- Original Message -------- From: "David Dombrowsky" Apparently from: ytsejam@torchsong.com To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: The pain of the odd beat Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:44:09 -0700 (PDT) To me, if I hear a song with time changes, unpredictable rhythms, and an odd beat, THAT is exactly what makes me like the song. To others, those same traits seem to actually make them nervous, angry, even violent. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 01:38:10 +0300 From: "Nikolaos Sakkos" To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat Message-ID: email_address_removed wrote: > To me the odd beats, and so on, in prog aren't the important thing. They're just one way to reach more areas of music. Make sense? :) I mean there can be prog without 11/8's in my opinion. I always thought this was a fairly common way of thinking amongst prog fans. > > And by the way, the reason why most people that I know dislike prog(metal), is because of the screams and too long guitar-keybord-unison-solos. :) Not the strange rhythmes. > > Yep, agree on that one. Eg, Tool are quite popular, although they have many unusual rhythmic patterns in their songs. They don't have solos (at least conventional solos) or high pitched vocals. Otherwise, they're more old fashioned than most prog metal bands (meaning the theatrical approach etc) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:04:27 -0400 From: Damon Fibraio To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat Message-ID: What's so wrong with unison keyboard/guitar solos? Hell, what's so wrong with keyboard solos in general? Even better, why is music devoid of any solos at all now? Why are we so afraid of talent lately that we can't even have solos? At 05:54 PM 7/12/2004, you wrote: >To me the odd beats, and so on, in prog aren't the important thing. >They're just one way to reach more areas of music. Make sense? :) I mean >there can be prog without 11/8's in my opinion. I always thought this was >a fairly common way of thinking amongst prog fans. > >And by the way, the reason why most people that I know dislike >prog(metal), is because of the screams and too long >guitar-keybord-unison-solos. :) Not the strange rhythmes. > > > > >-------- Original Message -------- >From: "David Dombrowsky" >Apparently from: ytsejam@torchsong.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: The pain of the odd beat >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:44:09 -0700 (PDT) > >To me, >if I hear a song with time changes, unpredictable rhythms, and an >odd beat, THAT is exactly what makes me like the song. To others, those >same traits seem to actually make them nervous, angry, even violent. -- Damon Fibraio, email email_address_removed Musician, broadcaster, computer technician, and troublemaker aol instant messenger screenname: dfibraio MSN Messenger screenname: email_address_removed: Band site: Visions: http://www.visions692000.com Listen to no Holds Barred Radio. Go to our site at http://www.nhbradio.com "To those who understand, I extend my hand To the doubtful I demand, take me as I am Not under your command, I know where I stand I won't change to fit your plan, take me as I am."--Dream Theater, As I am ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:39:49 -0400 From: Mike Shetzer To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat Message-ID: <000e01c46871$e7753d70$9b00a8c0@mizz> --Boundary_(ID_jPSgOPPrk0efO0VUrAtF9A) Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT I think as we discussed, solos are deemed pretentious and cocky. Especially if they last more than 5-10 seconds and contain more notes than seconds :) ----- Original Message ----- From: Damon Fibraio To: Multiple recipients of list Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 8:26 PM Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat What's so wrong with unison keyboard/guitar solos? Hell, what's so wrong with keyboard solos in general? Even better, why is music devoid of any solos at all now? Why are we so afraid of talent lately that we can't even have solos? At 05:54 PM 7/12/2004, you wrote: >To me the odd beats, and so on, in prog aren't the important thing. >They're just one way to reach more areas of music. Make sense? :) I mean >there can be prog without 11/8's in my opinion. I always thought this was >a fairly common way of thinking amongst prog fans. > >And by the way, the reason why most people that I know dislike >prog(metal), is because of the screams and too long >guitar-keybord-unison-solos. :) Not the strange rhythmes. > > > > >-------- Original Message -------- >From: "David Dombrowsky" >Apparently from: ytsejam@torchsong.com >To: Multiple recipients of list >Subject: The pain of the odd beat >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:44:09 -0700 (PDT) > >To me, >if I hear a song with time changes, unpredictable rhythms, and an >odd beat, THAT is exactly what makes me like the song. To others, those >same traits seem to actually make them nervous, angry, even violent. -- Damon Fibraio, email email_address_removed Musician, broadcaster, computer technician, and troublemaker aol instant messenger screenname: dfibraio MSN Messenger screenname: email_address_removed: Band site: Visions: http://www.visions692000.com Listen to no Holds Barred Radio. Go to our site at http://www.nhbradio.com "To those who understand, I extend my hand To the doubtful I demand, take me as I am Not under your command, I know where I stand I won't change to fit your plan, take me as I am."--Dream Theater, As I am --Boundary_(ID_jPSgOPPrk0efO0VUrAtF9A) ---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 20:52:24 -0400 From: email_address_removed To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat Message-ID: maybe you're just a little crazy. i listen to some pretty weird stuff (primus, dred zepplin, tom waits, crimson) and my wife tollerates it. She actually has gotten to like spocks beard. the flip side is that my wife listens to country and western music, so i tollerate that. we are both free to go into the other room when ever we want and the other is not offended. the thing is, though, we give each others music a chance. now, for someone to break up because they don't like the beard, that is kind of crazy (imo). imagine what would have happened if it was experimental music performed on found instruments. personally, i just don't understand getting bent out of shape because you don't like a certain band. i'm betting she listened to something wicked like britney and you didn't freak. just rambling, jacko ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 00:21:01 -0400 From: "Rick Rosinski" To: Subject: Re: Superior Live, other things Message-ID: <044901c46891$25049360$6701a8c0@amd1> > also great to hear that the new Superior Live album is > finally done. I listened to the samples from the > webpage and they sound very good. So, when is it > going to be available???? Bernd, could you please let > us know as soon as it is? Thanks!!! Good to see other Superior fans out there. I can't wait for the new Live CD myself. > I finally got the new Ayreon, and it's great!!!!!! I > think my favorite part of the album is Devin's chorus > in Day Three: Pain. Like Arjen said in the behind the > scenes footage, it gives me goosebumps. Great music, > great vocals, very cool concept. Now that I finally I absolutely *LOVE* the new Ayreon CD, The Human Equation. It is probably my favorite CD of the year, so far. I need to explore more of Ayreon's back catalog, especially The Final Experiment. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 13 Jul 2004 11:33:51 -0400 From: Damon Fibraio To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat Message-ID: Odd. Solos have been around for years and years. Although I do remember early 60s music that had little or no soloing, especially motown stuff. Cocky. That only comes from people too lazy to actually learn to play their instrument. You don't need to have a crazy steve Vai shred fest solo, but the idea that we're dumbing down music so that anybody can listen is just not quite right. That's almost like saying let's make it so that anybody can build a car or fly a plane or whatever. I guess it's just another way we're all getting lazy as a species. God forbid we put any time in to actually learn and master a trade. It's all about doing what it takes to get by. At 08:56 PM 7/12/2004, you wrote: >--Boundary_(ID_jPSgOPPrk0efO0VUrAtF9A) >Content-type: text/plain; charset=iso-8859-1 >Content-transfer-encoding: 7BIT > >I think as we discussed, solos are deemed pretentious and cocky. >Especially if they last more than 5-10 seconds and contain more notes than >seconds :) > ----- Original Message ----- > From: Damon Fibraio > To: Multiple recipients of list > Sent: Monday, July 12, 2004 8:26 PM > Subject: Re: The pain of the odd beat > > > What's so wrong with unison keyboard/guitar solos? Hell, what's so wrong > with keyboard solos in general? Even better, why is music devoid of any > solos at all now? Why are we so afraid of talent lately that we can't even > have solos? > > At 05:54 PM 7/12/2004, you wrote: > > >To me the odd beats, and so on, in prog aren't the important thing. > >They're just one way to reach more areas of music. Make sense? :) I mean > >there can be prog without 11/8's in my opinion. I always thought this was > >a fairly common way of thinking amongst prog fans. > > > >And by the way, the reason why most people that I know dislike > >prog(metal), is because of the screams and too long > >guitar-keybord-unison-solos. :) Not the strange rhythmes. > > > > > > > > > >-------- Original Message -------- > >From: "David Dombrowsky" > >Apparently from: ytsejam@torchsong.com > >To: Multiple recipients of list > >Subject: The pain of the odd beat > >Date: Mon, 12 Jul 2004 03:44:09 -0700 (PDT) > > > >To me, > >if I hear a song with time changes, unpredictable rhythms, and an > >odd beat, THAT is exactly what makes me like the song. To others, those > >same traits seem to actually make them nervous, angry, even violent. > > -- > Damon Fibraio, email email_address_removed > Musician, broadcaster, computer technician, and troublemaker > aol instant messenger screenname: dfibraio MSN Messenger screenname: > email_address_removed: Band site: Visions: http://www.visions692000.com > Listen to no Holds Barred Radio. Go to our site at http://www.nhbradio.com > > "To those who understand, I extend my hand > To the doubtful I demand, take me as I am > Not under your command, I know where I stand > I won't change to fit your plan, take me as I am."--Dream Theater, As I am > > >--Boundary_(ID_jPSgOPPrk0efO0VUrAtF9A) >---YTSEJAM FILTER: Rest of message skipped because of attachment -- Damon Fibraio, email email_address_removed Musician, broadcaster, computer technician, and troublemaker aol instant messenger screenname: dfibraio MSN Messenger screenname: email_address_removed: Band site: Visions: http://www.visions692000.com Listen to no Holds Barred Radio. Go to our site at http://www.nhbradio.com "To those who understand, I extend my hand To the doubtful I demand, take me as I am Not under your command, I know where I stand I won't change to fit your plan, take me as I am."--Dream Theater, As I am ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 6918 ************************** === Contributions to ytsejam: ytsejam@torchsong.com === === Send requests to: ytsejam-request@torchsong.com === === More information at: http://www.dreamt.org/local/ytsejam.php === === Brought by the ghost of ytsejam@arastar.coms past === === Reach the owner of this list at: ytsejam-owner@torchsong.com ===