YTSEJAM Digest 5446 Today's Topics: 1) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs by WB Henderson 2) hair metal in hartford by "Fran Brennan" 3) Xmas CD reprint by Steffen Barabasch - The Mirror 4) Re: ethics of selling boots by Scott Hansen 5) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs by "Christopher W. Ptacek" 6) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs by Erik Gudmundson 7) Re: ethics of selling bootlegs by "Graham B" 8) Cable modem vs DSL? (NDTC) by David Peterson 9) RE: YTSEJAM digest 5445 by "Philip J. Kaplan" 10) Re: Holdsworth streaming video (DG amps and a JP tidbit) by Jan Melander 11) Platypus CD-Cover by "Oliver Ploier" 12) new Metallica tune by "M P" 13) Re: Holdsworth streaming video / yet more live fusion by Jon Parmet 14) Re: Cable modem vs DSL? (NDTC) by Robb Muise ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:38:40 -0400 From: WB Henderson To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs Message-ID: Skip this message if you're tired of the bootleg thread. But, since it has been two or three months since it last reared its head, I continue in, headfirst... Scott Hansen wrote: >Perhaps you *might* be right about my being a bit heavy handed in referring >to people as cheapskates, but lemme say this: whenever a fan (with a great >reputation) who is running a boot label is releasing a great quality show >(bootleg), I will make the effort to purchase it from them (unless it's >outta print) for the same reason that I would hope others would do the same: >it costs money to do what they do. I think you misconstrued my argument. I have no serious issue with people selling bootlegs. Someone will be there to sell them, and if it's a fan, so much the better for the bootleg-buying audience (there's a lot of folks that want the originals for the album art, the sake of having an "original", etc.). If bootlegs must be sold, it's better that they be coming from people that actually know the song titles. I won't be buying a bootleg anytime soon, of course, but the fact that people sell doesn't really bother me. This doesn't change my stance on calling people who share my point of view on boots "cheapskates" is wrong. Truth: it costs money to produce a quality bootleg. Understandable. But it's not a valid argument here. Should everyone who owns a DAT be compensated for what they're doing for the bootleg-trading community? Should anyone who travels a long distance to tape a show have their travel accommodations paid for? Plenty of tapers distribute their wares for free. They may not have the glitz of the CDs available from the bootleg "labels", but they can be just as good, better in some cases (look at Prism). >my trading buddies will give it to me for free?" Guess what? He said "fuck >you all - if you can't appreciate what I've done, then why should I waste my >time?" and that was the end of Moose/Caribou. I don't know anything about Moose, so I won't make any comments on that particular instance. I would like to point out though that there are more (audience) bootlegs on the market now than there ever were. And a growing percentage of them are high-quality as audio taping and mastering equipment/software becomes cheaper and easier to obtain. >One last thing - if he is doing something ssssoooooooooooo wrong, why would >*Portnoy* approach *Ryan* about possibly doing some OFFICIAL bootlegs in the >future? Totally unrelated. An "official bootleg" means that the band is getting a cut of the profits. It's the same as an official release, only it may not be through their normal record company channels. Most DT fans, including myself, would see something like this as legit, and have no qualms about buying it. In any case, comparing "official" bootlegs to bootlegs is comparing apples to oranges. Portnoy loves Dream Theater bootlegs. It's well known. He is no doubt a guy that collects boots not only for their music, but for everything that comes with (and there's nothing wrong with that!). Therefore, bootleg labels like Scarred, Prism, and so on are great for him. You and everyone who disagrees with what I've been saying needs to understand that a lot of people don't think like this. We don't not-buy bootlegs because we don't have the money (which is not to say that we do), we simply believe in free trade of bootleg merchandise. Since there's no emphasis on the extras that come with "real" bootlegs, a CD-R, DAT, or even MP3 (for the undiscerning ear) works just as well for us. We just want the music, and not to support some non-band entity...especially since it is well known that plenty (and I mean plenty) of people out there are willing to tape and distribute high-quality shows for only the cost of postage. >So do you still feel like "freeing all the bootlegs?" In my opinion, someone who honestly just wanted to spread the music would not need to justify charging for their bootleggery. Someone who honestly just wanted to spread the music would not care if other people duped their work. Anyone who does justify or does care has a *business*, not a service, and, as such, is subject to the normal goings-on of business (in this case, 'unofficial' CD-R dubs are the outside competition). They cannot plead moral high ground, no matter who they are and even if they have the best of intentions, because, in the end, it is about money, not music. And that's fine by me -- to think that everyone would want to give away bootlegs for free is overly idealistic. Just understand that these are the reasons that any complaints about the 'fairness of it all' don't weigh in too heavily on my conscience, not because I'm making a conscious effort to rip Ryan, you, or anybody off. Go on selling boots -- there will always be an audience for the 'real deal' in bootlegs. However, in my case, if I can get recordings I believe should be free for free and it's not losing the bands I love any money for it, then that's what I'm gonna do. Brian, "Cheapskate" [NP...Life After Dead Air (WIXQ metal radio)] ================================== WB Henderson email_address_removed WIXQ ON-LINE: http://www.wixq.com Automaton Hit Parade (progrock radio): http://www.millersville.edu/~wixq/Automaton ================================== ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 21:24:22 PDT From: "Fran Brennan" To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: hair metal in hartford Message-ID: Is it normal that I have a strong desire to see the Poison/Dokken/Cinderell= a/Slaughter show in Hartford this summer? Not at all. In fact, concerts are just about the ONLY instance in which the desire to go to Hartford can be considered 'normal' =^) -Fran np: Miracle Orchestra: 8-7-99 ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 06:26:25 +0200 From: Steffen Barabasch - The Mirror To: Ytsejam Subject: Xmas CD reprint Message-ID: >What are the differences gonna be between the 1st and 2nd pressings of the >Xmas CD? Are there gonna be extra tracks or are tracks gonna be removed, >changed, what? I'm sure I'm not the only one wanting to know, so please fill >us in! Well, "Raise The Knife" was replaced by a new version called "Raise The Skirt" with all explicit lyrics. Oh, and the video now includes the shower scene! NOT. I just had to make another master because the pressing plant trashed the old material, that's all. I only changed some minor details for technical reasons. Steffen -- Steffen Barabasch (mailto:email_address_removed) THE MIRROR - deutscher Dream Theater Fanclub (http://www.dtifc.com/themirror) ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 26 Apr 2000 23:02:57 -0700 From: Scott Hansen To: Subject: Re: ethics of selling boots Message-ID: Adam Pye said: > I actually find "cheapskate" pretty offensive. As you can see in my other post (second to last of Jam 5445), I both apologized and stated that was not and still is not my intent. I am sorry if you took offense. > Why don't you give a > percentage of your profits to Dream Theater - then you'll sound less > hypocritical when calling traders "cheapskates". Ummm...you'll need to take that one up with Ryan since he is the label and the one selling them. I am simply a loyal supporter (and sometime supplier of source material) - nothing more. > Establishments like > Scarred Records are the biggest reason that taping isn't allowed at most > bands' shows. Perhaps in some cases but not with DT - the only reason why taping isn't allowed at DT shows is because JP, and to a lesser degree James, are worried about a bad/poor/imperfect performance being captured on tape. I'm sure if they really had a choice, they would've never allowed the HOB webcast to happen (the screw up in PMU is enough to make JP pass out in embarassment) without tweaking and/or editting the show. Otherwise, I'm sure Portnoy could have very easily swayed them both to the pro-taping side. Setlist Scotty ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:42:15 -0500 From: "Christopher W. Ptacek" To: Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs Message-ID: <001801bfb013$ba6c7340$b604fea9@madstation> > From: Scott Hansen > Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs This should be addressed. We have Ryan and Scott, who are NOT Mike Bahr. But remember, Mike Bahr wasn't always Mike Bahr. I don't want Mike to have the shit he's in now, and I don't want Ryan and Scott ever to get there (I know Scott won't... he's sort of like the Boba Fett of the bootleg for sale industry) > Perhaps you *might* be right about my being a bit heavy handed in referring > to people as cheapskates, I think, Scott, that you need to reconsider the defensive position here and just retract that statement. Boots are to trade. If someone wants to put in a lot of work to make them sound better and look prettier, that's cool. That does justify asking for some compensation, I believe, but does not justify demanding it. The material, even in remastered form, does not belong to the bootlegger, and he should simply turn the other cheek, as it seems Ryan does, when someone works out a way to get a free copy. That free copy is not lost revenue for the bootlegger. It's someone deciding that they care about the music more than the package, and a lot of people are that way. That shouldn't be something you dog someone about. You shouldn't call these people names. You are better than that. > outta print) for the same reason that I would hope others would do the same: > it costs money to do what they do. It costs TIME to do what they do. You can say "time is money" but most of these cats start out doing it in their spare time, for the joy of offering some music for people to listen to. If a listener feels that the time should be rewarded monitarily, then so be it. But people will do stuff like this without demanding money for it. Heck, we should have Ytsejam contests for "Design the Liners to the new Scarred Boot" and stuff like that. Ryan should find ways to cut $$ corners without having to cut quality corners. The real bottom line is that it shouldn't get to the point where he or anyone is RELYING on the money that comes in from boot sales. And the boots really HAVE to be at a fair price, if they're sold at all. IMO, a bootlegger should start boot trees for all of his boots, and then offer the "pretty" version for sale on the side. I can see paying to compensate materials (ink in the printer, cds, cases, postage and postal materials etc) but I don't think I can see far beyond that. That's "by the fans for the fans." > Imagine the amount of money Ryan blew At this point you HAVE to draw the line. I refuse to accept this as some kind of $ defense. This is where Bahr went wrong. You CAN NOT reclaim the money you spend on your boot gear, the shows you have to get to, the wear and tear on your computer etc. That's bullshit. I should charge you for the wear and tear on my computer that reading your post costs if you think that's fair. That's business. We don't want business. Scott, you and I have both done long distances to see shows. We don't ask for our money back. I am proud to blow a bunch of dough to see some awesome event a thousand miles from home. I'm insulted when someone says they deserve to be paid back for those expenses. You are paid with the experiences you get from those shows. You know you'd never trade the memories of the hottest shows you've seen for dough. If Ryan decides to offer copies of these shows, bravo. He still shouldn't ask to be paid back for travel expenses. Is he going to provide gas station receipts next? Are we going to start clocking the mileage on his car? No. I think Ryan is a better person than to demand this kind of compensation. The gear thing NEVER ends. I'm a guitarist with a project studio. BELIEVE ME, I KNOW. When you need to be compensated for one piece of gear, and you finally make that dough back, you need another piece of gear. It does not end. And for some people, like Bahr, when prices reflect the need to be compensated, they don't go back down when the money is made back. The new dough becomes income and the "struggle to get by" resurges. I don't ever want to hear that story again from anyone. You make the choice to provide boots and you know that you have 2 routes: little or no profit with honesty and good intentions, or higher profit margins with no honest concern toward ethics. I honestly feel that Bahr BELIEVED he was doing us a service. I think he BELIEVED that HE was the victim. He BELIEVED that Bafu and Wacky and I came out of nowhere and started attacking him. It's not that hard to lie to yourself. I actually believed I was still in shape until a few months ago. :) > As to the legality of the recordings - it is debateable as to whether they > are illegal or not and I choose not to expand on that, No, Scott. Fuck that. You know it's not debateable. You can not possibly say it's legal. There are fucking laws on the books. Debate the ethics, not the laws, or you're gonna end up in the trash can. :) You're a good friend. Use your head! > And for someone who cannot afford the show, I can feel for them - I've been > there before - REALLY! But just because someone can't afford something > doesn't mean they should just make copies for themselves. For instance, does > it make it right for someone to copy, say Mike's "Liquid Drum Theater" video > just because they can't afford it? No. So why a bootleg? Because Ryan puts a matter of hours into the reproduction of the music that DT puts LIFETIMES into. Because boots aren't supposed to be exclusive to one source. You shouldn't HAVE to deal with the same trader for one boot. You should be able to go to whoever offers it. Because it's for the FANS. Because the FANS want to have the music. Because boots are NOT BUSINESS, nor are they LEGIT. Because you don't feel that someone should get paid for someone else's work. I understand waiting until the thing is OOP, and I respect the sentiment, but if you're a flat broke dude who puts the effort forth to make trades online, you should be able to go through whatever channels you want to get the boot you want. Boots are meant to be freely traded. You can't make them into a product unless you have the rights to the recording. And playing the "Portnoy" card, consider this. Portnoy is REALLY cool about the boot thing. As we know, that's not exactly the official feeling from the band, but let's work with what we have. What do you think would make him more proud, people releasing excellent copies of the material for a profit, or for cost/free? Wouldn't that truly put things in their places, that the band is the one that is paid for being the band, and the fans have fewer restrictions on their ability to enjoy every facet of the music? > master the show. I'd like to see Scarred Records continue because of the > great quality bootlegs that have been released. Scarred Records is a labor > of love for the fans, whether you agree or not with the principal of buying > boots - it's that simple. Absolutely. But if it IS a labor of love for the fans of DT then it should be enough that people buy the Scarred release if they want the art and the design. If Scarred cares about the fans, it shouldn't matter that they go through other routes. Scarred should be proud that it has released great material that people deem worthy of trading as an official and highly sought after bootleg. If that means losses, it means losses. A labor of love is synonymous with "not about the money." Don't make it about the money, Scott. --- Ryan and Scott are extremely cool people, and Ryan runs Scarred with honesty and decency. Don't use the defenses Bahr used to defend someone who isn't being a dick. And don't put down the fans for wanting to trade for an item that is meant to be traded. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 03:11:10 -0400 From: Erik Gudmundson To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs Message-ID: Scott, >it costs money to do what they do. --snip-- >Imagine the amount of money Ryan blew --snip-- >Add the costs of --snip-- >how much he blew --snip-- >it does cost money --snip-- >the cost --snip-- >the cost of --snip-- >IT COSTS MONEY --the rest snipped for obvious reasons-- After your last overly repetitive post, I think it's fair to say that the fine members of this list understand your point. However, your argument has at least one major flaw: Fans trade their favorite bands' live music in order to increase their enjoyment of the performers they've grown to love. If Ryan or anyone else decides they'd like to tape a show, that's wonderful. That fan will bring the recording to a listenable level by using quality equipment, proper mastering techniques, etc. etc. If that listenable level includes snazzy artwork, hey, that's even more wonderful. Once the work is done (and that fan is happy), economically speaking, you're hard pressed to "charge" more than a trade for blanks or another show. This is a fundamental dictate of economics that says the socially optimal marginal revenue charged by a firm (You and Ryan Inc.) for a good is equal to its marginal cost. You can argue that the cost should be shared among all people who enjoy the bootleg, but if that's the case, then the taper fan really isn't doing it purely for himself-- let's be honest, he's either doing it for a monetary profit that the band will never see and/or to satisfy some sort of self-gratification complex. I've taped a number of shows, mastered them, and fairly traded them. I can also confirm what Adam said: It's not a particularly easy or cheap hobby, yet fans of many other bands consistently manage to tape and distribute shows honestly and fairly. To see how it's done and how to get yourself started, check out the DAT-Heads mailing list at http://www.eklektix.com/dat-heads/ Personally, I think that if you want to sell bootlegs, you should have a blast, enjoy your customers, and take a nice trip with all the money you'll "earn." But please, don't make weak attempts to run guilt trips on fans who don't tolerate your tax on their band's music. Posts like yours are a slap in the face to genuine tapers and traders everywhere. To everyone else, check out the website I mentioned and be friendly to your fellow DT fan. Who'd'a thunk that after joining the Ytsejam a week ago, my first post would be about this rubbish. I'm glad to see such positive Transatlantic reviews, though I can't say I'm surprised. I wish NEARfest 2000 would hurry up and get here. On the Hungarian piano Ytsejam topic, can anyone actually name a _bad_ (or even mediocre) Hungarian prog band? Everything prog I've heard from that neck of the woods has always been always stellar, particularly Solaris, who almost stole the show from Spock's Beard at NF99. Erik ------------------------------------------ Erik Gudmundson email_address_removed email_address_removed WIXQ ON-LINE: http://www.wixq.com/ Pull Me Under, progmetal FM & RA radio: http://members.dca.net/erik/ Beacon Technologies, the Chester Co ISP: http://www.beaconnet.com/ ------------------------------------------ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 18:56:18 +1000 From: "Graham B" To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: ethics of selling bootlegs Message-ID: > Imagine the amount of money Ryan blew on flying from Texas up to new > England for those shows. Add the costs of hotel accomodations, ticket > costs and other costs. And let's not forget about how much he blew to > pay for the equipment he used to tape the shows - of course he is > using it for other shows as well, but it does cost money - especially > for the mics ($1000 alone). Now you can say he did it "just because he > was a fan" and you would be right. But he did something more - he > recorded them. And because he made these recordings, he has every > right to charge something for them to cover his costs. Lets see, I flew from Sydney to London, then London to Amsterdam to see 2 DT shows last November ($2000). I stopped off in Singapore to buy a Mini Disc recorder ($300), stayed the night in a hotel ($200) I stay one night near Zwolle ($100) and the next night in Brussels ($100), I get the tickets for the shows and buy a few shirts ($200). I record the shows, take a lot of time to master the recording, make a liner for the boot, print it out on photo paper. I give copies of the show to my friends who'm I saw the shows with add to this the cost of airmail postage. I charge zip, zilch, not a cent and how much out of pocket was I ? Yet I haven't tried to recover any costs, so that just blows that argument out of the window :) > One last thing - if he is doing something ssssoooooooooooo wrong, why > would *Portnoy* approach *Ryan* about possibly doing some OFFICIAL > bootlegs in the future? So do you still feel like "freeing all the > bootlegs?" You might end up with nothing at all. So if Scarred don't release a boot of a show no one will have it ? Maybe not the sort of quality he might be able to bring, but those shows will still be obtainable to traders. Take the Stained Glass boot, that's widley available in trading circles under numerous different titles. Nothing against Scarred, I've bought from Ryan in the past and will no doubt buy from him once again :) gaz ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 01:19:34 -0800 (PST) From: David Peterson To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Cable modem vs DSL? (NDTC) Message-ID: Since we're kind of talking about this stuff... Questions from a guy thinking of buying a new computer... Biggest question: Which new technology is going to win out: Cable modem or DSL? ]From what I hear, DSL is the better of the two because you're always on, it doesn't tie up your phone line and it's better security. Could someone who is "in the know" provide a more informed opinion on the future of everyone's internet connection? Perhaps an even better technology is lurking on the horizon? Also, could someone post the "top speeds" of both types of connections and compare them to, for example, a T1 connection. (How fast is a T1 connection in bps?) I realize you can pay more for faster connections, so let's say less than $50 per month. Which gives you the better bandwith for your buck? Thanks! - Dr. Teeth _____________________________________________________________ Get email_address_removed email Today! Visit http://mail.computermail.net ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 04:37:33 -0400 From: "Philip J. Kaplan" To: Subject: RE: YTSEJAM digest 5445 Message-ID: > I'm sorry, but Phil Kaplan must stop posting. Eww. > :-) Hey Paul, they're my favorite band too, but Mike's live vocal skills are up there with James' dancing skills. And don't get me started about James' cute little tambourine... - Phil PS- Anybody in NYC looking for a drummer? Drop me a line. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 10:48:34 +0200 From: Jan Melander To: Subject: Re: Holdsworth streaming video (DG amps and a JP tidbit) Message-ID: on 00-04-26 18.26, Adam Cook at email_address_removed wrote: > > >> I have nothing to offer in the way of a review. Allan is someone you >> just have to experience. If you're into fusion you're gonna dig it. > > Words cannot put into meaning how awesome it is seeing that man play > live. He's so much better than everybody else it's just ridiculous. Of > course, it helps that his hands are so huge. He looks like he's playing > a little miniguitar half the time. Of course, a lot of jammers who don't > like jazz will think this sounds like 3 guys playing different things at > the same time. On the other hand, I think Holdsworth is as close as > anyone's ever got to playing with the raw energy and emotion of Coltrane > while improvising on the electric guitar. Too bad he can't do those cool > honks and squeeks Trane did when he started tripping. > > Damn...now I want a Carvin Holdsworth model even more. Sounds like he's > using a Mesa/Boogie amp, but it's actually that new Yamaha digital > modeling amp. I'll have to check it out...from what I hear it shits all > over the Line 6 and Johnson modeling amps. > > Adam I must tune in here, I bought a Yamaha DG-80 as a home-studio /practice amp and I'm extremely satisfied. I'm used to be a all tube guy, my live rig is based around a Marshall JMP-1 and stereo tube power amp. but I'm actually thinking of dumping it and go for the Yamaha stuff, they have 8 different amp characters and an extremely good EQ section with motorized controls!, 128 memory locations and a line-out with a great speaker simulation. But best of all: it sounds (and feels) more like a great tube amp than most of the tube amps I've played!!! If You are into a new amp you must check them out, and Yes, Line 6 can't be taken seriously when You compare them and Johnson isn't even in the same league IMHO... And now to something completely different: Last week I attended a clinic with Frank Gambale and the question came up why he had left Ibanez (he's now using Yamaha guitars with a signature model coming this summer). He said that it was all about ethic, Ibanez had done things (probably to him) that he thought was unethical and decided to walk out of his contract with them after 13 years, then he added "They did the same to John Petrucci, that why he's not with them anymore." Cheers, Jan Melander =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= Jan Melander, WM-data email_address_removed.se =+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+=+= #define QUESTION ((bb) || !(bb)) - Shakespeare ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:37:28 +0200 From: "Oliver Ploier" To: "ytsejam" Subject: Platypus CD-Cover Message-ID: <007801bfb02c$f0871f20$fc84fcc3@granatep> Hey, does anyone have the Platypus CD Cover from *Whem Pus comes to shove* ? I borrowed my copy to a friend who lost it I actually have a backup though. Now, I miss the cover. Couldn't find it anywhere. Tips would be great. Ah, I did buy it originally! So please don't start flaming... Thanx alot! Bye Olli from Germany NP: Pantera: Reinventing the steel. <-- sorry to my neighbors -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- Gott hat mich in die Welt gestellt, damit ich eine bestimmte Anzahl von Dingen erledige. Gegenw=E4rtig bin ich damit so im Verzug, dass ich sicher ewig Leben werde. -------------------------------------------------------------------------= --- ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 05:15:49 EST From: "M P" To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: new Metallica tune Message-ID: if you've been keeping up with the napster woes, here's someone's take on it... >From: "Graham B" >To: ytsejam@torchsong.com >Subject: http://www.metallicasucks.com >Message-ID: > > >If you hate Alternica as much as I do now, check out this great site. >http://www.metallicasucks.com >I found this little ditty: > >Enter Napster > >Snag a file little one >don't forget, my son >to download every one > >Download sin, download Fins >Download just for grins >Till the lawsuit comes > >Browse with one eye open >Gripping your lawyer tight > >Exit light >Enter night >Take my hand >Off to Napster lawsuit land > >Something's wrong, I just might >Lose some moolah tonight >'Cause you're downloading sound bites > >Dreams of power, dreams of ire >Dreams of songs on a wire >And of our Grammies past > >Sleep with one eye open >Gripping your 'rm *' tight > >Exit light >Enter night >Take my hand >Off to Napster lawsuit land > >Now I lay me down to sleep >Pray the Lord my songs to keep >If they're downloaded before I wake >Pray the Lord my cut to take > >Hush little Napster, don't send a byte >And don't issue a disk write >If you can kill with a hand saw >Then shouldn't they be against the law > >Exit light >Enter night >Old hair-band > >Exit light >Enter night >Freedom banned >We're off to Napster lawsuit land > >(by Marlboro email_address_removed) ________________________________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free E-mail from MSN Hotmail at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 11:55:03 +0000 From: Jon Parmet To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: Holdsworth streaming video / yet more live fusion Message-ID: > Words cannot put into meaning how awesome it is seeing that man play live. True dat. I've caught him in two different eras: First with Bill Bruford Band. This was, IMO, where Bruford was meant to be. Don't get me wrong, I love his prior work with Yes, but this was something that was truly allowing his chops to come to the foreground. Second was when Allan started his own solo thang and moved more toward the pure jazz side of fusion. Pretty much what you hear in the first 5 minutes of that video. Pointless jazz improv wanking up and down the scales? Or just complete loss of normal space and time? You be the judge :) > Damn...now I want a Carvin Holdsworth model even more. I fulluy expect to win the one their given away at that site. > I'll have to check it out...from what I hear it shits all > over the Line 6 and Johnson modeling amps. That'd be my guess. Then again, have no idea what the hell you're talking about ;) ///////////////////////////// Mike Stern (http://www.mikestern.org) is touring with Dennis Chambers (http://www.dennischambers.com == http://www.geocities.com/~dc35/). I'm pumped for next week's gig at the RegattaH BaH in Hahvahd Square :) ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 27 Apr 2000 07:58:50 -0400 From: Robb Muise To: ytsejam@torchsong.com, Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Cable modem vs DSL? (NDTC) Message-ID: >Biggest question: Which new technology is going to win out: Cable modem >or DSL? They'll be a market for both until we go wireless or VDSL gets rolled out. >]From what I hear, DSL is the better of the two because you're always on, >it doesn't tie up your phone line and it's better security. Could someone >who is "in the know" provide a more informed opinion on the future of >everyone's internet connection? Perhaps an even better technology is >lurking on the horizon? >Also, could someone post the "top speeds" of both types of connections and >compare them to, for example, a T1 connection. (How fast is a T1 >connection in bps?) >I realize you can pay more for faster connections, so let's say less than >$50 per month. Which gives you the better bandwith for your buck? What you have here is apples and oranges, Cable modems first and foremost aren't even a modem, its a bridged connection. The box that you get installed is merely an extension of the ISP, it has no IP address, and doesn't route any packets. It hands everything off from you and your ISP. The major problem with cable modems are that you usually are only allowed 1 ip address, and you share bandwidth. The speeds decreed of up to 4mps (megabytes per second) are farcical because if you have 2 ppl on cable modem on your street or on your node you share bandwidth, and you'll get decent speeds. Now increase that to 20 as more and more ppl sign up for it. The speed becomes horrendous. With DSL you have different flavors that you can choose to fit what you need. IDSL, the lowest speed of all the DSL connections is usually 192 or 144kbps. With SDSL, it goes up to 1.4mps and thats upload and download. With Cable Modems your upload speed is fractional of what your download speed is. Oh you don't upload files you say? Well ever play games online? send email? chat online? Your uploading. SDSL is the most common service when it comes to DSL, it is from 384kps to 1.4 and has the same up and down speed. Its fairly reliable yet caution should be noted when discussing DSL and reliability. Its not in the same class as a T1 even though its a higher speed. It uses the same kind of copper wires as your regular phone line does, even though they need to be installed. As such its prone to fail once in awhile, or never at all, consult murphy's law here. ADSL is the newest flavor of the month that is getting rolled out acroos the nation. Some places have had it for awhile, whil others are not even close to getting it. It's Asynchronous Digital Subscriber Liner, where as SDSL is Synchronous. Same problem as a cable modem, your upstream is going to be WAY lower than your Download. At the moment I've got an ADSL line in my house. 1.6mps downstream and 90k up, soon to be 256k. The advantages of an ADSL line is that its either bridged or routed, you can have a simple USB or PCI modem connected to your computer, no muss no fuss, or like the SDSL and IDSL counterpats, you can have routed service, which means that you have an ADSL router that can dish out IP's to your other computers, thus allowing you to have a home network without fooling around with a proxy server. The installation time for an IDSL or SDSL line is around 30-45 days. ADSL is about 5-7 days. Why the difference? Well with SDSL they install a new circuit, with ADSL they utilize your existing phone line, give you a shitload of filters to drop on your phone jacks and there ya go. Thats the basic groundwork behind the services you inquired about, i figured it may be too much information but it wil help you decide better when you understand the idiosynchracies of the technology, and speaking of which here's a quick rundown of the services that might better show you. Cable Modem- In the 50$ range, idiot proof, only one connection usually. Shared bandwidth which means slow service in urban areas. Not the same speed ever. Not considered a 24hour connection. SDSL- routed service so that you can have 1 to as many as you want computers online. Prices vary with speed, right now my company charges the following: IDSL 144kbps 144$ SDSL 192kbps 174$ SDSL 384kbps 214$ SDSL 768kbps 316$ SDSL 1.1mps 362$ install time - 30-45days and you have to pay for a router, 2-600 $ What if it goes down? well your ISP uses a Vendor who has to look at the trouble ticket they generate within 1 to 4 hours. Not that bad... Yea this is really expensive and is aimed to the business market. Most companies have cheaper rates for home use. ADSL- Router or bridged service, so it has the charcteristics of both a cable modem or SDSL. We charge the following. ADSL 640k/90k 22$(download/upload) ADSL 1.5mps/90k 56$ ADSL 7.1mps/640k 112$ (yea thats 7.1 MEGS a second but realize you have to be able to piss on your phone company CO from your house to get that speed....) time to install- 5-7 days What if it goes down? WEll up here, Bell Atlantic treats it just like a phone line so yuor looking at 3-4 days before someone checks it out.. We're bitching at them right now to fix this. T1 lines, you don't need. its a specific service that you need a contract for, it takes a month to install. But it is a t1, if it goes down the phone company has to look at it within one hour, and its 1.5MPS up and down. we charge about 1000 a month for it. I'd recommend an ADSL line, you get better service for your money, better speed, and its a 24x7 connection. Hope that sheds some light on it. Let me know if there's anything else you wanna know... (gee can you tell I work for an ISP) =) ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 5446 **************************