YTSEJAM Digest 5327 Today's Topics: 1) Re: Tone by Phil Carter 2) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5326 by "Nicole R. Stachowicz" 3) Re: Unsubbers / How long...? by Andrew Coutermarsh 4) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5326 by "gaz" 5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 5326 by email_address_removed 6) Re: Un-subscribe me. by "Michael Pruchnicki (DE)" 7) Tone.. fingers or gear.. by "Tristam Douglas" 8) Re: How long...? by Erik Wahlen 9) RE: The Show by email_address_removed 10) sfam and first time listens by "mr. case" 11) Unsubs, SFaM, and singing (FPAO Andrew Countermarsh & other singers) by "Awake ." 12) Re: TDoE by "Michael Pruchnicki (DE)" 13) Fandom, SFaM, Sherwood, "progressive" - what a can of worms YOU found! by "Awake ." 14) singing by Brian Hayden 15) Brian talks out of his a*se; not once but twice! (All, of course, IMHO) by "Awake ." 16) Re: Re:About guitars and stuff by "Jyrki Takalo-Kastari" 17) Re: Tone.. fingers or gear.. by "Tristam Douglas" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:53:51 -0500 From: Phil Carter To: A Pleasant Shade of Ytse Subject: Re: Tone Message-ID: Greetings ye 'jamanoids...... Matt G. said: >I think of gear as >perhaps more of an enhancement more than anything else. I'm a firm >believer that the majority of tone is a result of the relationship >between the fingers and the strings. This from the dude who doesn't HAVE to depend on his fingers for tone -- just for technique. :) Get back in the studio, ya poof. We want a new Dali's disc. :) cheers, Phil ================================================== Phil Carter -- email_address_removed -- http://users.usefulware.com/phil "Music, the greatest good that mortals know / And all of heaven we have below." -- Joseph Addison ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 00:21:22 -0600 From: "Nicole R. Stachowicz" To: Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5326 Message-ID: <005a01bf7c33$e23eb540$0101a8c0@pavilion> /me peeks in, finds the jam still smoking, and RUNS LIKE HELL! Seriously, I've been inundated with email asking "where's my cd?" that I haven't had time to read the 'jam. I finally got caught up this afternoon and left to go see my dad and his family. So I get home and I'm getting ready to go to bed when yet another email lands in my inbox. It's a jam. Ok, I'll read this one. Little did I know what was in it. Let me preface this by saying that Rob's email was the only one I read. I'll go back and read past jams later this week, but I thought I should respond to people's concerns now. ----- Original Message ----- > From: "Rob Pociluk" > Subject: Re: the DTIFC thing again > > Thanks, Matt for having my back. The "blame" is not Nicole's. To > the contrary, IF there is blame it's in Holland. Thank you for your support, Rob (and apparantly some other people). I appreciate it. :) But let's not go pointing figers blindly here. I think that part of the problem is that the CD was initially delayed because of the processing plant in Europe. Not the fan club's fault. The MINUTE the CDs arrived in Holland, they were sent out. Again, nobody's fault. Some 3-4 weeks later, they start arriving to certain locations in the US. Ppl are happy. Ppl are excited. All is well. Then some 5 weeks later several people, particularly in the northeast US, don't have their CDs yet. Personally, I think it's a problem with the USPS or at least with some part of the international postal service. I find it interesting that all the missing packages are all from the same area - PA, NY, NJ, CT, MA, etc. I also wonder whether they're sitting on a ship in the Atlantic or in some post office, undelivered. > It's foolish for > the CD to be taking this long. I think many of us have shipped > things overseas. And I know the items got there much quicker than > this. Sure, but how do you ship them? If you ship via air mail, sure the package arrives in 7-10 business days. But if you're on a budget (and are already getting flack for raising dues), then you're gonna ship via surface mail. This takes a minimum of 4-6 weeks to arrive at its final destination. Longer if there's some other problem like, say, a major blizzard. > I also think it's sad that an American band doesn't have a US branch > of their fan club. /me takes off "DTIFC" hat and puts on "DT fan / US Radio SUCKS" hat I understand that. However, how many times do you hear DT on the radio? Me? Exactly twice. Once when I personally gave a college radio station DJ a copy of the Home edit and begged him to play it and once when I was in Seattle and requested it before a concert. Sure different parts of the country are different, but if there's no support, there's not much that can be done. /me puts the "DTIFC" hat on again Besides, Holland puts out a DAMN fine fanzine. I know, some of you haven't seen it yet. But trust me, I'm a technical writer and have done newsletters and other stuff like what they do. I would have a hard time touching what they do on the budget they have. > We can all admit that we're tired the wait. Nothing > wrong with that. Of course not. I'd be concerned if something I paid for didn't arrive. However, I still believe that the packages are out there and will be delivered. Why? Because I got an email Saturday afternoon from a guy in Wisconsin who said he just got his package that day. If people are still receiving their CDs and fanzines, there's still hope for the northeast. Now we're faced with a long weekend with a holiday on Monday, which adds more to the wait. I'm just going to ask that everyone continue being patient. I really can't do anything but tell people to keep waiting. Holland can't do anything but wonder where the fanzines went. Please give it a few more weeks. .... On the subject of the "GET ME OFF THIS DAMNED LIST" people... Whatever happened to the days of 200 people flooding the poor person's inbox with instructions on how to unsubscribe? I think if maybe a quarter of us sent the person the instructions, then the person would get the message. Or hell, send 'em the email they received when they subscribed. That might do the trick. ;) -Nicole/Kirby is a bird and is easily squashed in a dogpile Nicole Stachowicz US Coordinator for the Dream Theater International Fan Club http://www.mikeportnoy.com/usdtifc.html Kirby on irc.dreamt.org:2112 #ytsejam and #ytseradio YtseKirby on irc.ram-page.com:6667 #mikechat email_address_removed -=- http://www.christopherlloyd.net __________________________________________________ Do You Yahoo!? Talk to your friends online with Yahoo! Messenger. http://im.yahoo.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 01:49:57 -0500 (EST) From: Andrew Coutermarsh To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Unsubbers / How long...? Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Nicole R. Stachowicz wrote: > On the subject of the "GET ME OFF THIS DAMNED LIST" people... > Whatever happened to the days of 200 people flooding the poor person's > inbox with instructions on how to unsubscribe? I think if maybe a > quarter of us sent the person the instructions, then the person would > get the message. Or hell, send 'em the email they received when they > subscribed. That might do the trick. ;) > > -Nicole/Kirby is a bird and is easily squashed in a dogpile Methinks the Birdy on Jagermeister has a point here. I remember the days of flooding people with those responses... It really proves a point when that happens. I say we all give 'em either the initial mail we get from the daemon when we sign up or we give them a really long, drawn out message that gives them the instructions in little bits at a time. :) Can it really be that after only a year and a half I'm becoming one of the "senior" members of the 'Jam? How many people we got here since the beginning? How many that are 3-4 years old? 2-3? /me wants to find out how many people there are that are REALLY old jammers. /me also realizes he's posted like 15 messages today. DAMN, I need to cut down. I think I'll head over to the MP.com forum now. ------------------------------------------------- Andrew Coutermarsh email_address_removed http://cout.dhs.org/ Cloak on IRC ICQ: 2513441 ------------------------------------------------- Psychiatrists say that 1 out of 4 people are mentally ill. Check three friends. If they're OK, you're it. ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 17:58:26 +1100 From: "gaz" To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5326 Message-ID: > Seriously, I've been inundated with email asking "where's my cd?" that > I haven't had time to read the 'jam. I finally got caught up this > afternoon and left to go see my dad and his family. So I get home and > I'm getting ready to go to bed when yet another email lands in my > inbox. It's a jam. Ok, I'll read this one. Little did I know what > was in it. Hmm why are you getting the mail ? Surely it's not your fault. I believe the reason is mail being painfully slow right now. I send a steady amount of mail around the world every week and for the past month, airmail has been taking up to three times as long as normal. A normal small parcel usually takes 6/7 days from Australia to the USA, recently it's been taking 3 weeks. Same with mail to and from Europe. Maybe this explains the delay. Anyway please be patient, don't hassle Kirby, it really is beyond her control. The CD is well worth the wait, the best ever xmas CD :) gaz ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 02:18:15 EST From: email_address_removed To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5326 Message-ID: In a message dated 2/21/00 12:42:28 AM Eastern Standard Time, ytsejam@torchsong.com writes: << > This is my third and my last request to unsubscribe me from this > crapletter. The next request will be from my lawyer. >> HAHA! This was too funny! What kind of lawyer is this?? That guy from the Simpsons? PLEASE, buddy. Get a clue. -Mike C. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:42:02 +0100 From: "Michael Pruchnicki (DE)" To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" Subject: Re: Un-subscribe me. Message-ID: > This is my third and my last request to unsubscribe me from this > crapletter. The next request will be from my lawyer. All three > requests are recorded and notarized. Don't push me. This is really cute, but maybe you should learn HOW to unsubscribe from this mailinglist before bitching. - Mike ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 10:46:33 -0000 From: "Tristam Douglas" To: Cc: "YtseJam" Subject: Tone.. fingers or gear.. Message-ID: <000b01bf7c58$ffac2020$e336883e@freeserve.co.uk> In reply to Greg Jones Re: YTSEJAM digest 5325 First of all an apology. My clumsy wording implied that you were a typical "ignorant" guitarist (I do not think that one person on the Jam could be described as such!) After reading your reply I had a re-think. I am still of the opinion that tone is generated by the player. Whilst I admit that gear changes effect sound the tone that you generate comes from fingers. I do not play the violin but an ex-GF was a Viola player in a decent orchestra. Good tone for her came as a result of optimal bowing technique, finger pressure on the neck etc. This is true of guitar playing too. Pick angle, point on string though which the pick passes, force applied to string on pluck and finger pressure on neck altering the tension in the string to varying degrees. All these variables must effect overtones in the note played. Evidence to support this is the difference sound of different scale lengths of stringed instruments. Also by changing pick type; material, shape, thickness or what have you the result get totally different tone. Thinking about it logically this is because you are setting the string into motion in a different way, using a different "technique." (Sorry if that was long winded. I was thinking with the keyboard, not lecturing!) Thus, I still have to say that good tone comes from good technique. I agree with you that VH's sound did change as a result of gear change but I still feel it is like the icing on the cake so to speak, the spice that can give a basic dish good flavour so to speak. Over here in Blightly one of the most sought after guitar tones is that of Hank Marvin. A prominent music journalist over hear got to play though Hank's rig set up at a gig. He sounded nothing like Hank. But I do think the more processed a players sound becomes the "colouration" become more dominant and thus technique generated tone becomes less important. Gear here the determining factor. I let this kid I know play through my rig (PRS, Boogie, Monster cable.) He sounded, to put it bluntly... crap. Now I know that I have not got an amazing, amazing tone like say Eric Johnson, SRV etc. but I can get a quite nice sound from this equipment. But when I stuck a load of outboard stuff in the FX loop the difference in tone because less, but there still was a difference. I suppose the electric guitar is special in that you can change the sound all from your fingers or by using different gear. Whilst I acknowledge you will never get a Les Paul to sound like a Strat I know different people get different sound from the same rig on the same settings... Let me know what you think. ------------------------------------------------- Tristam Douglas email_address_removed.co.uk ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 13:18:01 +0100 (CET) From: Erik Wahlen To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: How long...? Message-ID: On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Andrew Coutermarsh wrote: > > Can it really be that after only a year and a half I'm becoming one of the > "senior" members of the 'Jam? How many people we got here since the > beginning? How many that are 3-4 years old? 2-3? > Hmmm.. you've got me realizing I don't remember how long I've been reading the jam. I know that I've been subscribed on and off since FII was released. I didn't start posting until some months ago, though (at least I think so :). I don't remember however if I read the jam before that. I somehow was informed about APSOG when it was released, but that might have been through some newsgroup. Is there some way to check these things? What I remember from my first time is that there used to be more talk about Bafu Vai. Erik (who doesn't count himself as a "senior" member) ================================================ There's a space beside us, And there's miles between us, And all around us, Grows this shade of gray ------------------------------------------------ - A pleasant shade of gray, Fates Warning ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 07:02:28 -0500 (EST) From: email_address_removed To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: RE: The Show Message-ID: Didn't think much of the Star People, music was cool but the singer was an annoying fu*k. The Dregs were really cool, the violinist will blow you away, and what else can be said about Morse? Not to mention Morganstern(sp?) I too saw that Savatage show you speak of, and I had the same feeling. ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 2000 12:21:11 -0000 From: "mr. case" To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: sfam and first time listens Message-ID: my metal head friends (korn, slayer, metallica, anything mainstream) have received a large dosage of DT on an almost dayly basis since awake (when i found them). to my friends dream theater has been nothing but "the hair band" and/or "video game music". it even went so far that anything i put on (even meshuggah and the like) was automatically "isaac music" (that's me name) simple because it was ME putting it in the changer and instantly looked at with distain..that is until SFaM which they all love.. there ya have it inferno NP: Screaming Headless Torsoes >>>If someone asked me what album to buy first >>>for DT to get a taste of them i would tell >>>them SFAM. >>And they'd never listen to DT again. >Hmmm..... I played SFaM for two of the >youngsters (high-school kids) at work, and >they liked it. Both of 'em actually attended >the DT concert here in Detroit last night. And >to give you an idea of what kind of music they >like..... > >One of them was into Semisonic, Load/Reload >era Metallica, and Pearl Jam, and the other was >into ChumbaWumba and Marilyn Manson. Get Free Email, Anime News, and The Best Prices at http://AnimeNation.com ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 2000 12:46:08 -0000 From: "Awake ." To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Unsubs, SFaM, and singing (FPAO Andrew Countermarsh & other singers) Message-ID: >From: email_address_removed >Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5323 >TAKE ME OFF THIS STUPID LIST! 90% OF WHAt >is posted on this mb is total crap that has >nothing to do w/ music at all you people >ruined something that had some possibilities. >but then again you all may only be 12 years old >..then i would understand!! and: >From: email_address_removed (marcus pedersen) >Subject: Un-subscribe me. > >This is my third and my last request to >unsubscribe me from this crapletter. The >next request will be from my lawyer. All >three requests are recorded and notarized. >Don't push me. Thank you for including me, ROTFLMFAO. Is someone keeping notes of all these unsubscibe posts? We should have an award or something, "Thick, pretentious wanker of the millennium"! >From: Linus Akesson >Subject: Re: SFaM stuff >In accordance with the prophecy, Awake uttered: >> and chop the extraenious shit like the last >>five minutes of BTL, the first minute and a half >>of THE, and the whole of TDOE, some of those > >Say what?? The whole instrumental part of BTL >is swell, and TDOE plays a big role in the album >and in linking it to Met. part 1. TDOE played a big part in my decision to get out WaveLab and pro-tools, and burn myself an imrpoved version of SFaM. TDOE was beyond saving by editing; the only bit that I can even stand is the player piano and the bit just before it, because it sounds reminiscent of LTE. EVERYTHING after that tremoloed solo guitar part after the last chorus prior to the instrumental section (sorry to be vague, I haven't got the CD with me to get the time index) is completely extraenious. It's just rubbish; I can't even claim that's it's just THERE, because it's actively annoying. This is the sort of pointless noodling that gives prog a bad name...I mean, if even *I* (and several others on this list) think it's over-indulgence, then what are non-proggers going to make of it for God's sake?! Some might say that DT are in new uncharted waters; I'd say that they're lost in "Topographic Oceans". >What would you like SFAM to be? A Hollywood >movie? Why do you want to remove all the passages >that are slightly difficult to listen to? I'd like it to be a decent album, which it could be. Right now, it's OK. My version's getting there. I'm not chopping the stuff that's difficult to listen to, I'm chopping the stuff that's just wilfully "Look at ME! Aren't *I* de MAN!". Smug, and overly clever stuff...Like "Atlantis, part I" on Planet X, which marrs an otherwise pretty good album. >From: "Greg Jones" >Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5323 >> >>I cringe at the lyrics on SFaM. The concept >>sounds like something Neil Peart rejected as >>being "too hammy" (which for Rush is damned >>scary), and the lyrics don't even make the >>best of a bad job. > >I couldn't disagree more. The reason some people >don't like the lyrics on SFAM is because they >aren't ambiguous enough. Remember...ambiguity >breeds depth. But the lyrics on SFAM are >intentionally clear so as to tell the story. That's a fair point. They're very clear, and they do tell a story. It may be a rubbish story, but it's a story. The problem is, they're just not very good lyrics. I remember people were saying JP was really reaching on FII; but compared to SFaM, FII was Byron mark II! >This is just what you'd expect from a concept >album. It's also a limitation for a concept >album. It's a trade off but not necessarily a >deficit. Which do you want? A concept album or >ambiguous (read deep) lyrics? >You can't have both. Well, that's just it...One *can* have both; it's just about being a good enough lyricist to pull it off. JP and MP, it would seem, aren't. Neil Peart *almost* managed it on 2112, and that was only one song, and it STILL didn't work. Concept albums can work lyrically, but SFaM just doesn't. Even once you accept the concept, the lyrics are really bad. "Where did we come from, why are we here, where do we go when we die"? I mean, c'mon...Mariah Carey gets better lyrics than this! You can almost imagine the outtakes with James breaking down in fits of laughter: "I'm sorry, I just can't do this...'They continued to investigate, was the victim unaware'? What the fuck are you on, John?!" >From: Andrew Coutermarsh >I don't know how serious you are about singing, Really pretty serious. I'm fed up of being in the difficult position of finding a singer who doesn't demand the right to edit lyrics, or even write his/her own lyrics (which is daft, because as we all know, virtually no good singers can write good lyrics). I do backing vocals, but I can cheat on those! >and how long you've really been trying to do it, Missed the local Cathedral Choir by one semitone when I was 12. Been trying to be bothered since. >Sing as if you're yawning. That means that your >nasal cavities are not opened (if you plug your >nose you can't feel vocal vibrations) and your This could be a real problem. I've had sinus problems for years, my nose is completely f*cked up, *always* blocked in one nostril or the other to a greater or lesser extent. Doc says surgery could fix it, but I hate operations. Andrew, how badly is this going to affect singing? Is it under-the-knife time again? ~Simon Sign-up for free Buffy the Vampire Slayer e-mail at http://www.buffymail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:03:33 +0100 From: "Michael Pruchnicki (DE)" To: "'ytsejam@torchsong.com'" Subject: Re: TDoE Message-ID: > TDOE played a big part in my decision to get out WaveLab and pro-tools, and burn myself an imrpoved version of SFaM. TDOE was beyond saving by editing; the only bit that I can even stand is the player piano and the bit just before it, because it sounds reminiscent of LTE. EVERYTHING after that tremoloed solo guitar part after the last chorus prior to the instrumental section (sorry to be vague, I haven't got the CD with me to get the time index) is completely extraenious. It's just rubbish; I can't even claim that's it's just THERE, because it's actively annoying. This is the sort of pointless noodling that gives prog a bad name...I mean, if even *I* (and several others on this list) think it's over-indulgence, then what are non-proggers going to make of it for God's sake?! Some might say that DT are in new uncharted waters; I'd say that they're lost in "Topographic Oceans". I won't even try to convince you of anything, I'll just say that TDoE is my favorite Track on SfaM and probably my favorite DT track so far. - Mike ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 2000 13:16:25 -0000 From: "Awake ." To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Fandom, SFaM, Sherwood, "progressive" - what a can of worms YOU found! Message-ID: >From: "Matt Molite" >Subject: Re: SFaM rant ><<>If someone asked me what album to buy first for >>DT to get a taste of them i would tell them SFAM. > >And they'd never listen to DT again. >> > > >Well, thats your opinion. When Scenes came out, I >plugged it to my friends in school (mind you, Im >a High school Junior, so my friends would be a >bunch of 16/17 year olds) and sure enough there >is now at least 10+ kids that I turned on to DT >with SFaM alone, most of them I'm shocked and amazed. I still stand by the comment, though...If someone likes pop music, play 'em FII, if they like heavy stuff, play 'em Awake (starting with the Mirror & Lie), if they like pretty much anything, go for I&W. There are exceptions, of course...I gaveb a friend a tape of DT allsorts - and her usual tipple is Robbie Williams, Savage Garden, etc. - only for her to say that her favourite off it was ACoS. And she wasn't kidding. How 'bout that? >From: "Tristam Douglas" >Subject: Tone >A typical guitarists reply. I disagree. Basic >tone come from technique, changing gear is like >EQing the basic sound. Because most electric Uh-uh. Having had time to think about it, I'd sub-divide the 50% technique I said earlier of tone into 10% fretting hand, and 40% picking technique. That 10% is ALL about vibrato. But unless one's playing fretless bass, and maybe *some* lead stuff, the fretting hand doesn't make so much difference to the TONE. Never mind the notes being played, the tone's the debate here. >From: Steffen Barabasch - The Mirror > >Subject: HUH? >Well, the end of BTL and TDOE are my absolute >favorites, and I really love James' vocals on >this album. > >But maybe it's just because I'm a DT fan and you're >not. Whoah, there, boy! If being a DT fan means mindlessly accepting every note that they spew forth upon us as being the second coming of Christ, then no thanks, I'm not a DT fan! But I think that there's a lot of people on this list who share my opinion of SFaM, some of whom are fairly vocal about it, others who aren't. There's a very fine line betwixt heated discussion and dumb comments about who's a "real" fan...Oh, it's OK. You found it. >From: Digital Man >Subject: Megadeth changes! Film at 11! >>Besides, at least Howe's more exciting than Billy >"Sherwood be nice to play more than just boring >>rhythm parts". :) >> >>Be fair, that's what he's there for. It's like >>saying "Why don't Guy Pratt and Jon Carin play >>solos with Floyd" - well, because they're >>just musicians hired in to backup the remains > >Then why hire him? He did one exciting thing >all night. And even that was probably because >Steve wouldn't do it (it was an 80s song). As I understand it: Billy came in originally to work on a Chris Squire solo project in the early 90s. When that project changed back into Yes, Billy became just an understudy for Steve. Y'know, kinda' like a rhythm guitarist: he's not there to be flash, he's there to free up Steve to do all the flash (for him) shit that all the Yesfans want to see Steve do. >Hey, MP, you reading this? Enough with changing, >growing up, getting married, having kids, >replacing keyboardists... Kick out Jordan and >James, and get Kevin and Charlie back. Tim and >I want to hear "When Dream And Day Unite II"! >We've been paying good money for your albums, and >dammit, you owe us. You better write precisely >what we want to hear, or else. LOL! I'm just waiting for some idiot to reply to this, thinking it's serious! With all the unsubs floating around, the average Jam IQ must be floating downwards! >its kind of ironic that we have no problems with >bands that we expect to change when they classify >themselves as "progressive." but when bands i.e. Oh, I think plenty of people on here have problems with that. Remember all the bitching when FII came out? To: Subject: singing Message-ID: > From: Andrew Coutermarsh > > On Sun, 20 Feb 2000, Brian Hayden wrote: > >> Blah, blah, blah, blah. Sheesh. Correctly my ass. Correctly for the >> kind of music you're doing, sure. But lemme tell you, if you sang that >> way to most rock songs, 99% of the people who heard it would laugh. It >> just doesn't fit. To say that's the ONLY correct way to sing for ANY >> kind of music is arrogant and assinine. Think of any rock band that >> really gets you going...Led Zep, Megadeth, Rush, Slayer, Anthrax, >> whoever it might be. It would not work with "correct" singing. > > For once I get to actually correct you, Brian. WRONG. I'll say it again: > WRONG. Vibrato IS the result of a "correct" singing technique. No ifs, > ands, or buts. You can argue all you want to about "whether or not the > style dictates the need for it," but all in all, if you are singing with a > HEALTHY tone that is completely free and not held by the vocal mechanism, > then you are singing with vibrato. Heh, you can type it in capital letters all you want but that doesn't make you right. :) I know that a completely free and "healthy" tone will produce vibrato. I'm not disputing that. But I'm saying, who's to say that that is the only "correct" way to sing for any style. You can say it's the most healthy way to sing, and I won't dispute you (although as long as you're not screaming leaving the vibrato out isn't going to do much if any damage to your voice). But when you're talking about an art form, "correct" is a very touchy term to start using. As far as I'm concerned there is no correct way to do anything in music, despite what some people say. There are conventions, and there are ways that are more effective than others to do things if you're shooting for a certain feel or style, but you can't apply those standards across the board. It's just illogical. > I didn't say anywhere that > because he felt it was cliched that he was wrong, or that vibrato BELONGS > in all types of music. When you say it's the only correct way to sing, I think the implication is clear that you think everyone should sing that way regardless of genre. > Why not? It's a completely natural thing to do, and yet it shouldn't be > in there? Sure, there are times when it shouldn't be there - it creates > tension in the voice when you sing without vibrato and that, in turn, > causes tension in the listener. That makes it great for those moments > when you want a lot of tension in the air. But I just don't understand > why a person would call something that is SUPPOSED to be in the voice in > order for it to be a healthy tone "cliched." > > Man 1: "God, I can't believe he's singing with vibrato." > Man 2: "Why?" > Man 1: "Well, for crissake, people have been singing with vibrato since > the time Bach was alive. You'd think they'd have gotten sick of it by > now." But once again, why is it "supposed" to be in the voice. For Bach, it's supposed to be. For Slayer, it would sound ridiculous. When you get into cliche territory imo is when people overdo it, give it a theatrical swirl, not when it's just the slight "healthy" vibrato that you hear from say old LaBrie or Dickinson. You made the accusation that he hasn't been exposed to enough music outside of rock; I would like to turn it around and say that you haven't been exposed to much outside of opera and progmetal. See? It's really a stupid assumption to make, and I bet it's not true; but it's the same thing. You're coming at the question from the viewpoint of a classical singer; other people come at it from a more rock standpoint. Anyone who says that one side or the other is ignorant is being an ass. People just have different perspectives. -Brian ------------------------------ Date: 21 Feb 2000 13:37:09 -0000 From: "Awake ." To: ytsejam@torchsong.com Subject: Brian talks out of his a*se; not once but twice! (All, of course, IMHO) Message-ID: >From: Brian Hayden >Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 5324 >>all that crappy "hardcore dance" (y'know, the >>stuff that -whaever eese they claim - sounds >>exactly like any other dance music). > >I dunno who the heck you are, but all these kind >of comments you make pretty much shoot your cred. >If you can't hear differences in any of those >songs, it's because your prejudice won't allow >you to listen honestly. Nobody cares what kind of >music you like or don't like, but to dismiss >something in that fashion is a joke. This is nealy laughable. I listen to a lot of dance music, I go to clubs quite frequently. The difference between chart dance (Alice DJ, Sash! etc.) and what they call "serious£" stuff is about 2 weeks. A DJ I know just threw out his entire collection of previously "amazing" tunes, becasue they were now "too cheasy". It's all identical, and that's not becasue I won't listen honestly, it's a fact. Dance music is an absolute joke to write - and don't tell me it isn't, becasue it is. You can create the next "club sensation" on ReBirth in twenty minutes. >Think of any rock band that really gets you going >...Led Zep, Megadeth, Rush, Slayer, Anthrax, >whoever it might be. It would not work with >"correct" singing. Fucking hell, you're kiddin, right? If Robert Plant had submitted to some singing lessons, Zep would have been a lot better, and that takes some doing. Same for every other band you mentioned. Same for any band, period. It's the vocals that put me off so many bands, it's the vocals that make me refuse to buy WD&DU...And OK, it's both the vocals and the lyrics that make Fear Factory OK when they could be great. Obviously, my opinions; but I doubt I'm alone on this one. ~SJD Sign-up for free Buffy the Vampire Slayer e-mail at http://www.buffymail.com ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 15:24:21 +0200 From: "Jyrki Takalo-Kastari" To: Subject: Re: Re:About guitars and stuff Message-ID: <001701bf7c71$2722bd40$0de626d4@masiina> ----- Original Message ----- ]From: <"Nissinen Tommi"@fugazi.torchsong.com> To: "Multiple recipients of list" Sent: Monday, February 21, 2000 7:02 AM Subject: Re:About guitars and stuff > > Janne Lunnas (19.2.2000 13:58): > >By the way I bought new Stratovarius album Infinite yesterday from Oul= u(, > Finland)..have other > >Finnish jammers bought it already=3D3F > > I Couldn=3DB4t agree with you more. I think it=3DB4s their best job! Th= e songs=3D > like > Freedom and Mother Gaia make shivers goin=3DB4 down my spine. And Jens=3D= B4 key=3D > board > playing is amazing (as always). And the production the highest quality (aga=3D > in). This CD was a pleasant surprise for me. I wasn't expecting much after 'Destiny' and 'Hunting High and Low' single but Infinite just rocks. I agree with you about Jens. He's a wizard. Only complaint I can find is that the album is so short an= d J=F6rg's drumming annoys me a bit for some reason. Heh.. They just started to show Kiss of Judas video from Stratovarius in = TV :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 21 Feb 2000 14:24:37 -0000 From: "Tristam Douglas" To: Cc: "YtseJam" Subject: Re: Tone.. fingers or gear.. Message-ID: <001101bf7c77$62c085c0$523d883e@freeserve.co.uk> Hi Greg.. > I am not saying that fingers don't affect tone, but rather that there affect is much smaller compared to the gear's contribution. > The violin is totally different than guitar. If you don't bow the violin the correct way, it will screech. Not true of the guitar. You >can hold the pick any way that you want. I said that I do not play the violin.. I can "play" one but in the same way that a guitar player who can ply 3 chord can play the guitar. I find that if you do not have the pick parallel to the string as it travels through you get a scraping type of sound especially if the pick edges are rough.. Whilst it is not noticeable to the same extent as the bad bowing technique there is a parallel. > I've experimented with different pick angles on the guitar. I've experimented with different ways of playing vibrato. While >some of these techniques were audible (the pick angle difference is very very difficult to discern even with no effects), none of >them affect tone like playing through a different amp! I can't say it more clearly than that. > The string can only vibrate in two directions (up and down). The difference that pick angles and pick compositions make are >only upon the initial attack. After that, the sustain (which is the majority of the sound unless you're playing staccato) is the >same no matter what your pick angle, or pick composition is. Seriously I think pick are the ultimate EQ. The tone that you get from a 66 torext if totally different to that of a Black Jazz III. Picks have a HUGE impact on tone. As, if not more dramatic than playing through different amps. (I have Boogies, Marshalls etc etc etc ) I spent ages finding the picks I like the best. Pick design is paramount in tone generation. Lots of RD goes into the design of the pick edges to control the release of the string from the pick during a picking motion. Go to the Jim Dunlop homepage and read some of the stuff about picks there. Up-strokes and down strokes have hugely different sound. Even with bucket loads of cascading gain. Think Metallica type rhythms.. try plying them with all ups rather than downs.. > The string can only vibrate in two directions (up and down). The difference that pick angles and pick compositions make are >only upon the initial attack. After that, the sustain (which is the majority of the sound unless you're playing staccato) is the >same no matter what your pick angle, or pick composition is. The strings point to point vibrational path is elliptical like a skipping rope, not up and down. If you only heard the note produced from this vibration you would here what is called a sin wave. This gives the note it's pitch. But within the fundamental vibration there are smaller vibrations (overtones) that give the note it's timbre. (This is the reason different instruments sound... well different.) The overtones that resonate are the result of the energy put into the string. Differing amounts of emery = different overtones. And there is no way that a thin plastic pick can transfer the same amount of energy as a pick two or three times it's thickness. They do sound totally different. Thin picks sound glassy and if you go for a thicker pick you get more beef in the mids. Pick nearer the bridge to enduce a glassier tone and toward the neck for a fuller, more rounded tone. If you watch any truley great player they never pick in the same position along the strings length. > Now, I have heard differences between beginning players (I teach guitar) as opposed to advanced players when it comes to >the pressure of fretting and vibrato (usually lack of vibrato with beginners). These techniques make a difference but I could >have these players play an open D chord through my pro gear, I could play the same chord, and you'd be hard pressed to tell >the difference. I wager I could play an open D chord on any rig and get several different tone by variations of picking alone. Try playing a D by strumming over the neck pick-up and then close to the bridge... This is a technique I have been using for 12 years+ > I thought EVH's tone change was more than "icing". I thought it was pretty dramatic. Do you hear a bigger difference by someone changing pick angles? Depends who. Some players like say Via and Eric Johnson are amazing at tone manipulation via fingers and other players are not so. I heard EJ with just his strat in to a black face fender, no fx. The tone was there it was not in his gear and you probably know how picky about gear he is. >> That's because he was a crappy player right? Not because of the gear. That's primarily technique affecting playing, not technique affecting tone. He was not that bad. If I were to twist your words I could say that you have said that you need good a technique (not speed) to get good tone. But you are right that if some one ultimately sucks no amount of good gear will get them to kick ass. ------------------------------------------------- Tristam Douglas email_address_removed.co.uk ------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 5327 **************************