YTSEJAM Digest 4729 Today's Topics: 1) Re: Right, I'm gonna vent. by Brad Plumb 2) Subject: anderson, bruford, wakeman, howe by email_address_removed 3) Re: Korg ALMOST gets it Right & MusicSnob follows closely behind..... by "Brian D. Hayden" 4) IceQD, aka Sybil, among other brit aliases @aol.com by Amanda Rosenblum 5) anderson, bruford, wakeman, howe by Mark Shadburn 6) Subject: Right, I'm gonna vent. by email_address_removed 7) Subject: Tori and Bush by email_address_removed 8) Kate's Amos by Paul Weiss 9) Re: YTSEJAM digest 4728 by Bobby Tufino 10) Re: Right, I'm gonna vent. by "Kirby McWatters" 11) Re: Tori and Kate by Dave Ware 12) Progressive? Excuse me! by Steffen Barabasch 13) Re: PROGRESSIVE by Jim Shields 14) Platypus IRC Chat! by Gary Davis 15) Re: Right, I'm gonna vent. by email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh) 16) Re: Korg ALMOST gets it Right & MusicSnob follows closely behind....... by email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh) ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 13:48:54 -0600 From: Brad Plumb To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Right, I'm gonna vent. Message-ID: At 07:01 AM 3/9/99 -0800, you wrote: > >That's it, I can't take any more whining about how Metallica have >sold out; I've been threatening this for ages, and now I'm gonna do >it. >First, let's establish something. This is the DREAM THEATER >mailing list, DT being a PROGRESSIVE band. Let's look at what >Joshua Rasiel's shirts have on them again, people. That's right, it's >a definition of the term "progressive", and it says: > "1a) Of, or relating to, or characterised by progress > 1b) Making use of, or interested in new ideas, findings or >opportunities > 2) Moving forward or onward. >I'm not gonna argue here, that's the best description I've seen of >progressive music thusfar. Everybody on this list is a fan of >progressive music, or we wouldn't be here, right? We love the fact >that if you covered "A Fortune in Lies" and "Hollow Years", nobody >would believe that it was the same band that had produced these >two tunes. DT have PROGRESSED. Actually I would say that progressive means moving forward in the sense that you enter uncharted territors, you continue to evolve in creativity. Change does not necessarily mean progression, remember that change can also mean REGRESSION. In my opinion parts (not all!) of FII are regressive as are most all of Load and Reload. A conversation on the jam on irc summed it up best someone said that "FII was different and new" to which someone responded "Different and new for DT yes, new for the music industry as a whole? hell no. " I think that's the point. We don't want to hear DT do things that other bands have done, we'd buy cd's from those bands if that were the case. Parts of FII (LITS, Hell's Kitchen, and TOT specifically) are very creative. The rest of it is all going down paths that other bands have traversed a thousand times, and in fact is one of the more popular sounds of music today (BMS, JLMB, and YNM). It's like Steven Spielberg making a war movie and being proclaimed for how original and diverse he is, when in fact he was really following a path that had been laid out by the filmmakers who came before him. To sum it up: Do I want to hear stuff that DT has never played the like of before? certainly. Do I want to hear them play stuff that other people have already covered, even if they themselves haven't covered it? hell no! You have to acknowledge that there is regressive as well as progressive change, and sometimes the difference between them is a fine line. As for Metallica, I think what angered me with them was not so much the change in their music, as it was their all out attempt to change their entire image. They seemed to me to be trying hard to fit into the MTV mainstream: change in appearance, musical content, more videos, etc. But if you insist, I will not use the dreaded "Sell out" word. My opinion of load/reload is this: the music is stale, the production sound is too polished for what they are trying to play which gives it this redundant edge to it, and both albums lack almost any form of creativity whatsoever. This is not a flame, I am simply trying to bring forward (as you requested) a valid criticism. Palpatine Co Founder of Pi-R-Squared productions: www.pi-r-squared.com "Thank God I'm an aetheist" -Luis Bunel "What an incredible smell you've discovered" -Han Solo, Star Wars: A New Hope "Perhaps god gave the answers to those with nothing to say"- Savatage: Somewhere in time ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:27:10 +0000 From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Subject: anderson, bruford, wakeman, howe Message-ID: its not called yes because the name is owned by the bassist. chris squire went to do a solo album and they wanted to continue. so they titled it anderson bruford wakeman and howe rob ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 13:43:39 -0600 From: "Brian D. Hayden" To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Korg ALMOST gets it Right & MusicSnob follows closely behind..... Message-ID: Responding to the message of from email_address_removed: > > > Korg wrote: > > >Yah, really. Ice is actually a transvestite hermaphrodite with 12 wooden > >legs and a prosthetic abdomen. Therefore Mosh must be a three-eyed, > >duck-billed, tapdancing caterpillar named Dino. > > > >DTC: Mike Portnoy thinks we're all gay > > Almost - in actual fact I'm a schizophrenic bisexual hermaphrodite with > homicidal tendencies (but I don't fuck piano stools, barstools perhaps - they > tend to have holes in the seats)! You're all wrong. Ice is a lonely, disturbed woman strapped into her bed. Fire is that hot tire iron she uses for a dildo, personified for the benefit of the squeamish. -Brian ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 11:50:01 -0800 From: Amanda Rosenblum To: "email_address_removed" Subject: IceQD, aka Sybil, among other brit aliases @aol.com Message-ID: > Nope and yep, Fire & Ice are part of the same person, but you got the male AND > female thing right (yin and yang) ;-) I don't know about homicical hermaphroditic satan worshipping auto erotic asphyxiation loving prostethic hallucinogenic whatever... But I know when I smell mutliple personality disorder. This is like that episode of the Brady Bunch when Jan was lonely and invented a boyfriend. Mental health, people. ~~Amanda np: Colorblind single.. oh wait, it still hasn't fucking gotten here! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 11:56:42 -0800 From: Mark Shadburn To: "'email_address_removed'" Subject: anderson, bruford, wakeman, howe Message-ID: I just got in the habit of calling them "NotYes" no ever asked me to explain. ShadRock ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:01:17 +0000 From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Subject: Right, I'm gonna vent. Message-ID: DAMN!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! ya know i dont like the direction mettalica has gone either. and i think selling out would entail changing styles to suit the current trends of popularity. mettalica hasnt done that *entirely* they have gone a little softer in SOME songs but not to the point of turning themselves into mainstream robots.. aka grunge alternative.. which is what im hearing on EVERY radio station today. mettalica is progressing but into what is the question. for the better or for the worse. thats up to the fans of the band to decide. but we will wait and see. as for dt doing a images and words 2 album. hmm might not be that bad of an idea. kind of a revolving style change. like rush has done at times. *rush = progressive gods* lol robgaul i think stone korg said it the right way. "They're progressing in reverse imo." which is why people are abandoning them.. ive abandoned their "new" style after black i lost interest. they just seemed to have gotten more careless with their skills. hell they could play most popular bands under the table. but theyve decided to just relax their styles and let the public kind of dictate their music. example. re-load. theyve become a little commercialized and thats kind of a shame. ill stick with and justice for all in my cd player and creeping death on my lp player *promo copy* (G) ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:02:33 +0000 From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Subject: Tori and Bush Message-ID: ROFLMAO HAHAHAHA love the thinking ___________________________________________________________________ You don't need to buy Internet access to use free Internet e-mail. Get completely free e-mail from Juno at http://www.juno.com/getjuno.html or call Juno at (800) 654-JUNO [654-5866] ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:05:05 -0500 (EST) From: Paul Weiss To: A Mind Forever Ytse-ing Subject: Kate's Amos Message-ID: That subject heading is almost as bad. Kate is one of my favorite performers as well. And yes, Tori does borrow a little of her style from Kate. I first heard Kate on Peter Gabriel's fifth solo album, then the third, then on Two Rooms, and I finally cracked and bought The Sensual World. What I want to know is: already owning Lionheart, Sensual, Hounds (EMI remaster + bonus tracks) and the Red Shoes, is This Woman's Work still a "must-get?" Thanks for your advice. P NP Jim Capaldi: Let the Thunder Cry ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Paul's biweekly musical quote: Power now is all the rage/ Don't excuse it use it well/ Keep the lion in his cage/ Free from hunger, free from hell. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 15:36:07 -0500 From: Bobby Tufino To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 4728 Message-ID: > > is gonna get an expletive-heavy e-mail from me. Fine, you don't like > Re-Load. I do, actually, I think it's a hell of a lot heavier than MoP - BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!!! What a load of bullshit. Opinions, I know, but come on... > > Icon-era Paradise Lost are a hell of a lot heavier than Napalm Death in my book BWAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!!! I don't think we need a definition of heavy to realize this is just bullshit. Dude, chill out. If the rest of us have to live with bullshit like that "ReLoad is heavier than MoP" thing, then I think you can live with a few people saying Metallica sold out, it won't kill you. By the way listen to Icon and then listen to Fear Emptiness Despair and tell me Icon is heavier. You're pretty funny, dude. Bobby ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 12:49:04 PST From: "Kirby McWatters" To: email_address_removed Cc: email_address_removed.ac.uk Subject: Re: Right, I'm gonna vent. Message-ID: Hey all, Simon lost his copy of the email he received when he joined the list and wrote: >That's it, I can't take any more whining about how Metallica have >sold out; * Kirby sighs a deep sigh and tries to prevent the flames. Simon, I (and I'm sure MANY others) wish you had NOT done what you did today. I'm going to guess that you haven't been on the list long (long meaning more than a year). The subject of Metallica selling out (or DT selling out) has LONG since been banned after the last time someone decided to go and do what you did. Btw, the definition of the word "Progressive" is one of my personal pet peeves. The term Progressive refers to bands from the late 60s to the 70s who all wrote in the same, very particular style. Some bands from that category are Yes, pre-Collins Genesis, Gentle Giant, Hawkwind, etc. They were called "progressive" because they were different from anyone else in their time. Kind of like the term "alternative" meant an alternative to top-40 music. However, these days "alternative" music is the mainstream rather than the exception. Anyway, Marillion, Ozric Tentacles, Spock's Beard, etc. fall into the category of Neo-Prog. That means new bands that are using the same style as the older progressive bands. It has nothing to do with progressing forward as the term once meant. It simply means that they write music in the same vein as their predecessors. And DT may be categorized as progressive, heavy progressive, progressive rock, or progressive metal depending on your particular mood. ;) If you personally disagree, that's fine. Sometimes the lines can be blurred. But that's the way it happened. Other information on this can be found at the Gibraltar Encyclopedia of Progressive Rock at http://www.cogsci.ed.ac.uk/~philkime/GEPR/gepr.html Now, I BEG of EVERY jammer out there: Just let this thread (which shouldn't have happened in the first place) die. Oh yeah, email_address_removed wrote: >thank you >Nicole, in Connecticut and very much wanting to go IMPOSTOR!!! IT'S ANOTHER AOL IMPOSTOR!!!!! Quick! Somebody tell D-man the impostor is back!!! * Kirby points and laughs. :-) (Btw, for you newbies again, that part of it was a joke. :) -Nicole/Kirby Nicole Stachowicz McWatters email_address_removed via hotmail 'cuz her work acct. sends in MIME URL: http://www.geocities.com/Hollywood/Set/5039 Kirby on irc.dreamt.org port 2112 Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 14:58:02 -0600 From: Dave Ware To: "'email_address_removed'" Subject: Re: Tori and Kate Message-ID: Hey, -mojoman writes: > >A far better subject for this email would've been: > >Subject: Tori and Bush > > >Imagine the possibilities.... :) I resisted - another attack like that and it's the funny farm for me :) Dave (a UK jammer - now in Alabama). ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 21:57:19 +0100 From: Steffen Barabasch To: Ytsejam Subject: Progressive? Excuse me! Message-ID: Hi! Metallica being progressive, haha... Just because someone MOVES doesn't mean he's 'prog'! People shorten the word to the snappy 'prog' for a reason: Because it doesn't really mean 'progressive' anymore! This attribute was invented back then in the 70s when some bands tried to make more interesting music. Some called it art rock, some sophisticated rock, and some called it progressive rock, because it *was* back then. Nearly all of these bands 'progressed' further and started to make simpler and less interesting music. Some became famous, getting a lot of new fans, and some split because their old fans did not accept their new style and they didn't manage to build a new fanbase. Just talk to a Genesis fan. Oh, excuse me, I forgot, a fan of the *early* Genesis. Or to someone who likes Yes. Of course the early Yes, not the commercial outlet with Rabin on guitar. ;-) They will call themselves prog-rock-fans, and will call the music they like prog-rock, though it was the music these bands made *before* they 'progressed'. Don't take 'progressive' literally, otherwise no one will understand you. Actually prog bands play the most conservative style you can imagine. A good progressive band, like Spock's Beard, nowadays sounds like the *early* Yes, *70s* Genesis, *early* Marillion, whatever. Oh, I forgot, *early* DT of course! I have heard a lot of I&W clones, but not a single FII clone. Everyone who's afraid that DT will 'regress' and make I&W II, be assured, they won't. But I bet they will bring the special prog-vibe back into their music. If that really means 'regression' to you, well, listen to Metallica if their way of 'progression' makes you happy. Everyone else will call it good old prog and love it. Steffen -- Steffen Barabasch (mailto:email_address_removed) THE MIRROR - German Dream Theater Fan Club (http://www.westend.com/TheMirror) "Genetic engineering lets us correct God's horrible, horrible mistakes. Like German people!" - South Park ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 16:55:29 -0600 From: Jim Shields To: email_address_removed Cc: email_address_removed Subject: Re: PROGRESSIVE Message-ID: >The fact is, Metallica are being PROGRESSIVE nope. they're simply changing. which is different from being Progressive. To be Progressive, in my understanding of the term as it applies to music, means to push the musical envelope, experiment with melody, harmony, rhythm, and sound, and try to do something nobody else has ever done, not just to change. With load and reload, Metallica went to a more basic, straight up rock/metal sound, often reminiscent of AC/DC. They were progressive on ...And Justice for All, with the complex and non-standard melodies and song structures, pushing heavy metal to new extremes. They changed to a more basic pop-oriented song structure on the black album (which I actually think is one of the best albums of the 90's), but largely kept the music established with their previous albums. Also, Progressiveness does not occur in a vacuum. If you look at Metallica and Metallica alone, then you could argue that they are being Progressive from one album to the next, since each one is a pretty big departure from the previous. But, with their most recent releases, Metallica is not Progressing from the standards/norms they and other pioneering bands like Megadeth and Iron Maiden helped establish. They actually move to grounds well-tread by others. I'm not saying this is a bad thing, just that it isn't Progressive. Change can be a good thing, and I look for it in bands. If FII and Awake were merely I&W rehashes, I wouldn't be such a big DT fan, if at all. If the Dave Matthews Band's CD Before these Crowded Streets sounded just like Under the Table and Dreaming (damn these are some long titles!), I would lose respect for the band for not branching out and exploring new territories. I'll admit, I don't always like the way a band changes, like with L/RL, or with STP (I just can't get into Tiny Music), but I admire them for changing, and NOT selling out. I think a band should be called a sellout if they put out album after album of the exact same stuff, like if Metallica put out three albums just like the black album. Sticking with a format that happens to win popular acclaim is more of a sellout than changing one's style in a way that suits their changing interests. Take Sugar Ray, for example. They had this one oddball song on their CD called "Fly." It makes them a gazillion dollars. So what do they do on the next album? Remake "Fly" a dozen times to try to cash in on this success. They used to be a heavy band. Now they do a bunch of bubblegum songs for the 13 year old girls who also listen to the Spice Girls. I've taken up a lot of space so far, so I'll end it here. I've got a test tomorrow anyway. Ciao! Jim Shields Guitar/Vocals Room 213 -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Spread before you is your soul / So Forever hold the dream within our hearts Through Nature's inflexible grace, I'm learning to live. Dream Theater "Learning to Live" -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 09 Mar 1999 18:08:29 -0500 From: Gary Davis To: email_address_removed Subject: Platypus IRC Chat! Message-ID: Hi, folks! The latest Artist Shop newsletter is out and you'll find it in its entirety at . But here's some snippets that will definitely be of interest to DT fans. Drummer Rod Morgenstein and keyboardist Derek Sherinian of the band Platypus will join us on Sunday, March 28 at 3pm eastern/12 noon pacific. Platypus has just released their debut album on Velvel records called When Pus Comes to Shove. Rod has an extensive background as one of the founding members of the extremely influential Dixie Dregs. He was also a part of Winger and more recently the Rudess Morgenstein Project. Derek's background is with Dream Theater. The other members of Platypus include John Myung, bassist and stick player for Dream Theater, and guitarist/vocalist Ty Tabor of King's X. Rod and Derek will be taking questions on their new band and what's in store for the future of Platypus. Full details on joining this chat are at . On our New Imports page you'll find the following item: DREAM THEATER-IMAGES AND WORDS: LIVE IN TOKYO Limited edition Japanese release on an NTSC videotape. Contains the video clips to 'Pull Me Under', 'Take The Time' & 'Another Day' and live versions of 'Under A Glass Moon', 'Wait For Sleep', 'Surrounded', 'Ytse Jam', 'To Live Forever', 'A Fortune In Lies', 'Take The Time' & 'Pull Me Under'. Also features stereo sound and a running time of 90 minutes. There are some new things to talk about on our Magna Carta page . Coming next month is Magna Carta's ELP tribute, Encores, Legends & Paradox! This great tribute features performances by Peter Banks, Martin Barre, Robert Berry, Geoff Downes, Jerry Goodman, Glen Hughes, Igor Khoroshev, James La Brie, Pat Mastelotto, Doane Perry, Simon Phillips, Mike Portnoy, Jordan Rudess, Derek Sherinian, John Wetton and many more; and features many of the great ELP classics! With a lineup like this, you definitely have to check this out! We've got some new members to welcome to The Artist Shop including ELP and our new Manticore page . Emerson, Lake and Palmer were one of the very first supergroups having converged from such groups as The Nice, King Crimson, Atomic Rooster and the Crazy World of Arthur Brown. And they lived up to the name being one of the prime innovators in the (at that time) youthful genre of progressive rock. They spawned many imitators, none quite approaching the genius of the original. Eventually they formed their own record label, Manticore Records, not only for their own releases, but for other progressive artists of the time (Pete Sinfield, Banco, PFM, etc.). After the initial break up of the group in the late 70's, the label ceased operation as well. But in the last couple years Manticore Records has returned, initially to make available previously unreleased music. But one hopes the continued success of Manticore will bring about reissues of some of the original Manticore releases as well as some new original material! Gary ************************************************************** Gary Davis The Artist Shop The Other Road http://www.artist-shop.com email_address_removed phone: 330-929-2056 fax:330-945-4923 SUPPORT THE INDEPENDENT ARTIST!!! ************************************************************** Check out the latest Artist Shop newsletter at http://www.artist-shop.com/news.htm ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:14:48 -0800 From: email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh) To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Right, I'm gonna vent. Message-ID: Before being sacrificed upon the altar..., "Simon John Dodd" thus begged: > [big ass post about DT and Metallica selling out] BZZZZZ wrong... Metallica sold out... end of story... -The Doc -- *#&*@#@*(#@#*@(#!@*#(!@#(&!#(@!*#@((#@$(#@(($@#($(#@$@#($@#(*$@(*$*(#(#(##(#(# computersarefasterthanhumans - devastatetoinnovate - hyperspacialparallelcomp\ email_address_removed = http://progmetal.gmsnet.com = internetcyberwetwaregamedev+ s*o#o$n@@c*o!m^e)s@@t>h gaMECoReTeKN0 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 9 Mar 1999 15:18:15 -0800 From: email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh) To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Korg ALMOST gets it Right & MusicSnob follows closely behind....... Message-ID: Before being sacrificed upon the altar..., email_address_removed thus begged: > >>>P.S. Some people sure don't get sarcasm, do they, Ice? >Kevin<< > >Nope, it is a very British thing like irony .... > >Ice (and Fire) > >PS: NOW do you get it MoshMan? Or should that be Dr Mojo? ;-) > No, but I sure understand douching... do YOU understand it? -The Doc -- *#&*@#@*(#@#*@(#!@*#(!@#(&!#(@!*#@((#@$(#@(($@#($(#@$@#($@#(*$@(*$*(#(#(##(#(# computersarefasterthanhumans - devastatetoinnovate - hyperspacialparallelcomp\ email_address_removed = http://progmetal.gmsnet.com = internetcyberwetwaregamedev+ s*o#o$n@@c*o!m^e)s@@t>h gaMECoReTeKN0 ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 4729 **************************