YTSEJAM Digest 4465 Today's Topics: 1) rhapsody cat. no. by Peter Geerts 2) MMW/Scofield (NDTC) by "Partha Mukhopadhyay" 3) Re: YTSEJAM digest 4464 by email_address_removed 4) OAN Records by Jon Kretschmer 5) Re: subjectivity, blah, blah, blah by "TSM" 6) Little boy... by "Nicolas M. Rincon" 7) Re: OAN Records by Edward Polzin 8) Re: SONG OF THE MILLENIUM...yeah. by email_address_removed 9) Get Madsman talking about subjectivity again... I dare you by "Christopher Ptacek" 10) The Darkest of Winters by email_address_removed 11) Paganini by Luke Bateup 12) DT Shows by Joe DeAngelo 13) George Bellas by Stephen Dedalus 14) Questions about Superior (NDTC) by Bernd Basmer 15) Re: Subjectivity, blah blah blah by Kevin Carmouche ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 00:52:39 +0100 (CET) From: Peter Geerts To: Majesty Subject: rhapsody cat. no. Message-ID: Just a quickie... Does anyone have the catalogue Rhapsody's Legendary Tales? I can't seem to find anywhere on the net (not even on LMP's website)... Reply to me privately pls. Tnx Cheers Zaphod ============================================================================== Peter Geerts *QUOTE* email_address_removed.ac.be "HELP!" (The Beatles) ICQ: 13122363 Second Year's Political Sciences Student, Leuven University, Belgium President JVS Orion Mechelen Youth Astronomers Club, Belgium ============================================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 16:15:56 PST From: "Partha Mukhopadhyay" To: email_address_removed Subject: MMW/Scofield (NDTC) Message-ID: >With all the talk of Jazz/Prog/Rock lately, I was listening to one >of my favorite Jazz bands the other day, Medeski, Martin and Wood, >and I was thinking about where to draw the line between Jazz and >Prog. Some jazz has so many of the characteristics of good >progressive music (complex beats, intricate instrument playing). >Where do you guys draw the line between Prog and Jazz? What groups >cross that line every once in a while (either way)? point the first: since prog necessarily means rock of some sort, and rock and roll has only been around since oh say the 19950s, shouldn't you say that prog shares many of the characteristics of jazz? have some respect for your favortie musical form's elders! :) point the second: one of the more interesting albums released this year has Medeseki Martin and Wood playing back-up for John Scofield.....name of the disc is "A go-go" (or something like that), and it's really cool, perhaps a more "mature" version of what MMW might end up like in aboutu 20 years......you might want to check that out, Josh (and other MMW/jazz fans) partha ______________________________________________________ Get Your Private, Free Email at http://www.hotmail.com ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 19:17:36 EST From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 4464 Message-ID: artsymayhem THeater Now hey guys. these are my sorta new mailing lists. just like themirror that lisa managese. ( you can also find themirror at my site too ) . ive got an amazing total of 7 hits so far. lets see how the competition does :) happy posting :) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 17:20:31 -0800 From: Jon Kretschmer To: email_address_removed Subject: OAN Records Message-ID: Could someone send me the website for Open All Night Records? Either to the jam or me personally, both preferrably. Thanks. Jon ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 03:20:45 +0200 From: "TSM" To: Subject: Re: subjectivity, blah, blah, blah Message-ID: Jason Braswell: > Why is the absolute subjectivity of aesthetic value always the >starting point for any conversation about it? It seems to have achieved >the same axiomatic status as "I exist" or something. It's because almost every bloody thing on this godforsaken planet is subjective. Take a moment to think about it. Music, art, culture, history, ethics, aesthetics, values and even time and place are subjective. >Objectivity in >aesthetics is no more odd than objectivity in ethics. Of course, most >people will retort that that is a crock as well, but they almost always >recant when they realize that such a view makes Hitler and Mother >Theresa play on the same ground. Such wildly subjective and nihilistic >views are simply counterintuitive, and they don't jive with the way that >we speak of ethics and aesthetics. The very fact that we argue about aesthetics and etchics should be enough proof of the subjectivity of these things. But if it isn't allow me to make it clearer. In the paragraph above you are making an obvious reference: Hitler=bad, Mother Theresa=good. Well, I say there are no such things as good and bad. There are only point of views. I personally see Hitler as a monster and despise him almost in every possible way. A point of view. Some shit-for-brains-neo-nazi sees him as a hero. Another point of view. The fact is that all of us, Hitler, the shit-for-brains, I and even you, messire, are products of our genes, society, culture, our friends, our enemies etc. etc. From the moment you start learning things as a baby you are being shaped into what you are, and you make your statements according to what you have picked up on the way. We, you and I that is, speak of Hitler as an evil person because we are comparing his ideas and values to our own. We are doing this all the time in our lives. If you truly were objective where would you compare Hitler's ideas to? No human is Tabula Rasa, you know. We can say that Hitler was a monster from our subjective point of view. We can form opinions, change minds, argue, agree, disagree, value and revalue our/others's lives etc. because we're being subjective all the time. If we examined something objectively we all should agree on it (whatever "it" was), we wouldn't have an alternative. It wouldn't make any sense to argue because everybody could see how "it" really was. To this day mankind has never wholeheartedly agreed on something. In example from my point of view Mother Theresa is pretty fucking (pardon my French) far from a saint. >Value-talk is just the same as >normal talk, and, therefore, the onus of proof is on the subjectivist. Pish-tosh my good man. This here didn't make sense at all. I could just as well say that the onus of proof is on you because it's Monday. Anyway, I've done my part, so now it's your turn. >People are all to ready to embrace subjectivism of all sorts because >society is still dealing with the horrors of racial discrimination and >what-not, and that, of course, was partly due to a misplaced sense of >superiority, but the badness of certain values does not entail the >badness of values altogether, and it should not be considered the >beginning ground for any discussion. > jason In my opinion "subjectivism" doesn't equal "no values". It only means that you acknowledge that your values and opinions are not necessarily the only and/or right ones. All you can really do is to live by your values and form your own opinions on things and hope that someone else thinks in a same way. This mail is highly subjective and opinionated. Act according to it. And to anyone who wishes to continue the debate; Methinks this is not a right place for an ethicsjam. You have my e-mail address. ------------ tonimaki@dlc.fi --------------- | There are three kinds of people; | | Those who can count and those who can't. | -------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:41:32 From: "Nicolas M. Rincon" To: email_address_removed Subject: Little boy... Message-ID: To Graham Boyle: Do you think you're funny, boy? You're right, inside the CD are the lyrics... but i'm a 'copymaster', something is wrong? :o) Cheers to all!!! (and ANOTHER kiss to my dear... Niria, jaja). Nico... THE argentinian Ytsejammer. \\\|/// \\ - - // ( @ @ ) +-----------oOOo-(_)-oOOo-----------+ | Nicolas M. Rincon | | e-mail: email_address_removed | | ICQ: 11862235 Nick: Tabo | | Santa Fe, Argentina | | "Seize the day..." | | Check: http://www.raweb.com/colon | +---------------------Oooo----------+ oooO ( ) ( ) ) / \ ( (_/ \_) ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 20:50:24 -0600 From: Edward Polzin To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: OAN Records Message-ID: http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Mezzanine/9326/oan.htm Jon Kretschmer wrote: > Could someone send me the website for Open All Night Records? Either to > the jam or me personally, both preferrably. > > Thanks. > > Jon ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:36:19 -0600 (CST) From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: SONG OF THE MILLENIUM...yeah. Message-ID: Hell, I think its cool enough that in the top 25, DT is the only band with two songs (ACOS and Metro). Im sure that voting for ACOS is a wise bet now, its already at #2, but Im sure everyone who voted for it will smack their heads into the wall once they hear Metropolis part 2. Hehehehe. Cute popularity contest, but its very cool to see DT at the top of it. (since when could Hansuck make the top 10 of anything, cept maybe for top ten girl performers of all time ;-), not even. Matt ===================================================== "A daily dose of eMpTyV "Following our instinct will flush your mind not a trend. Go against right down the drain." the grain until the end." -Dream Theater -Metallica ===================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:36:54 -0600 From: "Christopher Ptacek" To: Subject: Get Madsman talking about subjectivity again... I dare you Message-ID: <000c01be1c12$c245dca0$message_id_removed> >From: "jason braswell" (someone else) >>First of all, music is SUBJECTIVE, so a Top 5 is just OPENING yourself I included this, because I wanted to say that there is nothing wrong with making a top 5 list (though NOT ON THIS LIST) of anything, regardless of subjectivity. Why can't one have one's own list of favorites and make it public? Subjectivity doesn't preclude preferences and tastes. >Objectivity in aesthetics is no more odd than objectivity in ethics. It is not at all the same. You can be a moral absolutist and not an aesthetic absolutist. I have put a couple years into studying philosophy at the college level, and this isn't the first time this idea has come up. It's hogwash. Having absolute ethical values (as almost all religions preach -- even the LaVey school of Satanism) is necessary in order to have a functional society. I can get into the 10 main faults of moral relativism, but you're not going to argue against me anyways there. Aesthetics on the other hand are measured through the senses and value judgement is made by the individual. We don't all see colors the same, nor do we hear notes the same, or frequencies (like how I can't handle the frequencies that come out of Billy Corgan's facial anus) etc. We are FORCED to judge things differently unless we prefer to simply not judge them at all (go with the flow and buy the new Smashmouth album, selling it to a used cd shop a month later when it's uncool). >recant when they realize that such a view makes Hitler and Mother >Theresa play on the same ground. Such wildly subjective and nihilistic >views are simply counterintuitive, and they don't jive with the way that >we speak of ethics and aesthetics. I believe that everyone is relatively "nihilistic" (if you want to call it that) when it comes to music. Your cd collection revolves around your tastes, not your mother's tastes, not your music theory professor's tastes, etc. That's the furthest thing from counterintuitive. Ethics and Aesthetics are two seperate fields of philiosophy. Intuitively, one might conclude that this is because they differ enough to require their own fields. What applies to ethics does not necessarily apply to any other field of philosophy. >Value-talk is just the same as >normal talk, and, therefore, the onus of proof is on the subjectivist. This doesn't make sense in any language. If you believe that music can be judged as an absolute, measurable phenomenon, then the "onus of proof" is on you to present a scale by which we can all come to agreement with your bad absolute self. >People are all to ready to embrace subjectivism of all sorts because >society is still dealing with the horrors of racial discrimination and >what-not, and that, of course, was partly due to a misplaced sense of >superiority, but the badness of certain values does not entail the >badness of values altogether, and it should not be considered the >beginning ground for any discussion. Indeed, but you mix--to a dangerous degree--your philosophy. A misunderstanding of ethical values or a misplaced or unbalanced sense of superiority is a bad place to start a musical discussion. Subjectivity, on the other hand, is a relevant and logical topic to come up within such a context. Jason, if you want us to play by your rules, you're going to have to set them out as an absolute standard. And as your rules are not the same rules that we play by in our appreciation of an aesthetic (music), if you do push them as an absolute, then they are merely a "misplaced sense of superiority" to us, as they are subjective in nature. Someone else: >actually, yngwie derived his chops from a 17th century violinist by the >name of paganini.. he studied his arpagios and melody line chop for chop >and converted them to guitar.. :) What Yngwie says now differs greatly from what Yngwie said in his Mike Varney Spotlight from before he was famous. In said column, he names DiMeola (from whom he got most of technical ideas) and Uli Jon Roth (from whom he gained the rest of his techniques and MUCH of his phrasing). Yngwie doesn't sound like Paganini. It's just a cool person to be able to compare yourself with... Paganini was a great showman. Yngwie's music is mostly what Bafu calls "neo-Baroque" whereas to sound like Paganini, one would sound like a "neo-Romantic." There is much more similarity between Bach and Yngwie or Mozart (a Classical composer, for anyone who wanted to bitch that I used the term Baroque) and Yngwie than there is between Paganini and Yngwie. For Ygnwie to play the same arpeggios as Paganini is only intuitive, as most of those arpeggios are major, minor, and diminished triad arpeggios, the same ones that Bach used, and the same ones that DiMeola and Roth use. Yngwie changed the face of shred guitar, no doubt, but let's give credit where it's due. Vinnie: >with her he never played guitar again :0 One of the caprices was adapted >(or so I'm told) to "Eugene's bag of tricks" by Steve Vai from the movie >Crossroads (Ralph Macchio's character plays it in the movie at the end). The music in question is actually a violin Caprice, from the famous "24 Capricci" > And wasn't Paganini 18th or 19th Century? Yes. 1782-1840. >Me thinks I might be checking out Greg Howe after hearing him do the >bass and a coupla guitar lines on a CD i just got from an Indian >(Berklee trained, but we all know what that means...or doesn't >mean....anyway) guitarist named Prashant Aswani..... Prashant is a bad-ass too! You GOTTA get some Howe though! ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 21:38:51 -0600 (CST) From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: The Darkest of Winters Message-ID: I was wondering if anyone could tell me where (or if anyone has) The Darkest of Winters written out for guitar with the actual music staff above it. Im trying to learn this one run in it (where its just JP and Portnoy playing) and I cant figure out the division of the notes to play it to a metronome. A scan will do if anyone has one. Thanks Matt ===================================================== "A daily dose of eMpTyV "Following our instinct will flush your mind not a trend. Go against right down the drain." the grain until the end." -Dream Theater -Metallica ===================================================== ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 12:12:21 +1000 From: Luke Bateup To: Ytsejam Subject: Paganini Message-ID: Vince queried: > And wasn't Paganini 18th or 19th Century? Well, a bit of both :) Born 1782, Died 1840. I don't know whether he gave up guitar after his relationship ended, but it was at his lover's persuasion that he take up guitar and doing so, he wrote 12 sonatas for violin and guitar. Also, due to his frightening displays of virtuosity and strange, lanky physique, Paganini was often thought to be in league with the devil (or something to that effect). Very cool.... :) Czech-ya, Luke. ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 23:59:07 -0500 From: Joe DeAngelo To: YTSEJAM Subject: DT Shows Message-ID: Greetings to all those in Ytseland. I'll keep this brief. I'm thinking of heading out east (I'm from Detroit) to check out some (read: as many as possible!) of the late December DT shows. I'd like to get together and hang out with some Jammers, both as far as going to the shows, and just generally hanging out/fucking around. I mean, I don't know anybody out there, and I don't feel like heading way out there to be bored out of my mind with nothing to do (except catch the shows, of course). So if anybody is interested in getting together at all, please E-Mail me as soon as possible so that I can figure out what the deal is, and if I'm gonna go (I need to decide ASAP.... if I do go, I need to make work arrangements in the very near future). Also, if anybody could tell me a bit about the proximity between the shows, and where would be a good "centrally located" place to stay to catch the maximum amount of shows - any info would be appreciated. By the way, is there any big "Ytsegathering" planned or anything? Thanks, I hope to hear from some of you, - Joe D. email_address_removed Magellan on ICQ (# 1872723), and IRC ************************************************************************** Just another Sunday morning / Seen my diary on the newsstand Seems we've lost the truth to quicksand / It's a shame no one is praying 'Cause these voices in my heard keep sayin'... / "Love, just don't stare Reveal the Word when you're supposed to" - Dream Theater "Voices" (lyrics by John Petrucci) ************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 22:12:59 -0800 (PST) From: Stephen Dedalus To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: George Bellas Message-ID: Greetings, I just recently got ahold of George Bellas' Turn of the Melenium. Though I enjoy Yngwie, I thought he had mastered the art of tasteless shred. I was wrong. Bellas can out-play Yngwie in terms of technique, and he does it every note of the CD. It's utterly BORING!!!!!!!!! Yes, it's awesome shred, but to me, there's no emotion at all. Should anyone still like to get ahold of this CD, I'll part with it for a measely $5. Be well. Matt B ============================================================================ ATTENTION! ATTENTION! ATTENTION! Guitarist in the Santa Cruz/Monterey area of California seeks innovative, experimental, technical, and fun-loving musicians to create works of art and share them with the public. Enquire if interested. email_address_removed ================================================================================= "With Man gone, will there be hope for Gorilla?... With Gorilla gone, will there be hope for Man?" (Daniel Quin) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 30 Nov 1998 08:14:12 +0100 From: Bernd Basmer To: email_address_removed Subject: Questions about Superior (NDTC) Message-ID: Hi! As there were a few questions about our band, I jump out of the lurker's hole... :) >Date: Sun, 29 Nov 1998 15:03:47 +0100 >From: Sebastjan Videc > Now about Superior. Bernd can you answer me if you detune your guitar in >some songs on Behind? And if so, how? >Thanks. Yes, we have 2 tunings on Behind. There is the standard tuning and the D-tuning. The D-tuning means that we tune down the guitars to D-G-C-F-A-D. On Younique we have another tuning for some songs. Tuned down to: A-D-G-C-F-A. So it's the same tuning as the D-tuning, only with the deep A. :) There was another question about the guitar sound on Behind and who produced the CD. Well, we produced it ourselves and I'm still quite satisfied with the sound. :) I think though, that the sound on Younque is MUCH better because it is somehow more warm but still very heavy. It is more direct. Bye Bernd ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Bernd Basmer Guitar - Superior For info about Superior have a look at: http://www.fine.de/superior http://www.truemetal.org/superior http://www.noiserecords.com/superior ------------------------------------------------------------------------ If you're good, you solve your problems. If you're better you have none. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 30 Sep 1998 01:25:09 -0500 From: Kevin Carmouche To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Subjectivity, blah blah blah Message-ID: Hmm...Haven't posted in awhile, in fact, i've missed reading a few Jams, but this message just stuck out for some reason... Hehe, I'm sure I'll get flamed for this just like I get flamed for everything I say, but could you please spare the neo-psycho-sociological lingo(makes no sense, I know) and talk in English??? Jesus, a man just states his top 5 guitarists, then people all start talking about it all being just opinion, which we all know it is, fuss at the guy for ranking people even though it's part of our culture to always place things in order of favorites or "best", then, we get someone to fuss at those people with some mumbo-jumbo about racism, hitler, and mother theresa,and how aesthetics is the same as ethics(don't know WHERE this came from...someone had a goofy philosophy professor) damn, did I miss something??? hehe >> 5. Eddie van Halen ( face it, he invented modern rock guitar ) >> 4. Joe Satriani ( 'cos whatever EVH forgot, Satch didn't ) >> 3. Jimmy Page ( ...I mean, where do you begin? ) >> 2. John Petrucci ( the perfect mix of 5, 4, and 1 ) >> 1. David Gilmour ( the sound...the phrasing...the material...) > >First of all, music is SUBJECTIVE, so a Top 5 is just OPENING yourself Why is the absolute subjectivity of aesthetic value always the starting point for any conversation about it? It seems to have achieved the same axiomatic status as "I exist" or something. Objectivity in aesthetics is no more odd than objectivity in ethics. Of course, most people will retort that that is a crock as well, but they almost always recant when they realize that such a view makes Hitler and Mother Theresa play on the same ground. Such wildly subjective and nihilistic views are simply counterintuitive, and they don't jive with the way that we speak of ethics and aesthetics. Value-talk is just the same as normal talk, and, therefore, the onus of proof is on the subjectivist. People are all to ready to embrace subjectivism of all sorts because society is still dealing with the horrors of racial discrimination and what-not, and that, of course, was partly due to a misplaced sense of superiority, but the badness of certain values does not entail the badness of values altogether, and it should not be considered the beginning ground for any discussion. jason -- Geaux Tigers!!!! http://www.angelfire.com/la/qryche/index.html "I Know If I Try, I'll Get Where I'm Going/ Keeping My Eyes On the Sky" -"Some People Fly" by Queensryche ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 4465 **************************