YTSEJAM Digest 3916

Today's Topics:

  1) Goddamn, who pissed in your Wheaties?
 by Eckie <email_address_removed>
  2) Moshing
 by "Giannotti, Nick" <email_address_removed>
  3) 7-String stuff........
 by EVO V <email_address_removed>
  4) driving
 by The iban <email_address_removed>
  5) Re: Caught in a mosh
 by email_address_removed (Charoenkwan Luesumphan)
  6) Moshing....
 by Mike Pontrelli <email_address_removed>
  7) Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
 by email_address_removed
  8) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3913
 by email_address_removed
  9) Prog etiquite
 by email_address_removed
 10) Tall People
 by Mike Pontrelli <email_address_removed>
 11) Re: Caught in a mosh
 by belhai <email_address_removed>
 12) Mosh this!
 by Carol Dellinger <email_address_removed>
 13) Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
 by "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>
 14) moshing debate ...
 by "Ryan P. Skadberg" <email_address_removed>
 15) The big setlist for HoB
 by Christian P Kremo <email_address_removed>
 16) Re: Prog etiquite
 by Matt Johnston <email_address_removed>

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Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 12:39:20 -0700
From: Eckie <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Goddamn, who pissed in your Wheaties?
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Steve Zebrowski wrote a happy little diddy:

> Do people actually think that those who like to stand in their own
> personal space and enjoy a concert in a club should MOVE to get out of the way of those who invade the personal space of others?  That's insane and, yes, selfish.

Dude, did you even read the supporting arguments in that position?  A
lot of it has to do with the atmosphere;  what band is playing and who
the audience is.  I'd like to see you try to stand in one spot
throughout a Pantera show without getting elbowed once or twice!  Dream
Theater, Fates Warning, and Celine Dion are wholey different beasts! 
(Although out of all of them, I truly fear the Celine Dion fans....)
 
> If I'm on the road and I'm driving my car like a maniac does it mean the
> other drivers have some sort of OBLIGATION to get out of my way?

For their own personal safety?  HELL YES!!!

> What if
> I'm drunk, too?  Everyone should get out of my way?  What if i like to
> throw my dirty, smelly clothes all over the apartment?  That, of course
> means my roommates should move, right?

Or kick your ass. :)

> I pay the same rent they do, so
> it's my right to be this way and everyone else be damned.  the
> aforementioned things are extensions of this faulty logic.

Like....  What. Ever.
Uhng.

> If there is no designated mosh area there should be no moshing.  If there
> is a designated mosh area then it should be away from the front of the
> stage where people are trying to watch the concert.

And I'll be the volunteer to set up the signs all over the floor. 
"WARNING!!!  This is a designated mosh area!  Watch out for flying
assholes!"  Hmm...actually...that belongs in the faq. :D
 
> What?  What's that?  Those who mosh are just so into the concert that they
> "lose control" of their bodies?  Boo fucking hoo.  What are we?  The
> whirling dervishes of the Soufi?

A guy with a barbed wire-entwined pole up his ass?

> The operative words here are LOSE
> CONTROL.  We cannot excuse every behavior that has ever happened because
> someone "lost control."

When the HELL did I ever say apply the art of moshing (hahaha, sorry...I
just had to use the 'a' word again) as a WAY OF LIFE?!  Some people go
to concerts to do just that, TO LOSE CONTROL, they need an escape from
the confines of regular life.  If I'm having a bad week, and Anthrax
plays a club, you can be a sure as hell that I'm gonna be in the pits
mixing it up!  It's all a release, but like I stated before, it's
different for every band.  Anthrax has wild pits, Pantera has killer
ones (quite literally in some cases :^/ ) and they don't even have to
shave often (badoomp boomp).  When I go to this DT concert, I will be
headbanging like a mad motherfucker, but rest be assured, their music is
not the kind I run around ripping skulls apart to.

~Eckie SNAPS INTO A STEVE Z!  (OOOOOOOOH YEAH!)

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:47:34 -0400
From: "Giannotti, Nick" <email_address_removed>
To: "'email_address_removed'" <email_address_removed>
Subject: Moshing
Message-ID: <4AA929543BC8D111A4E800600808ACE52B113F@HAMSXHA2>


With all the rant about moshing going on, I think I'll throw my nipple into
the fray. 

First off, don't you think we're all preaching to the converted here? I
mean, we can all sit here and talk about how inappropriate it is for someone
to start flailing about at a DT show, but *we* aren't the people who would
be doing that (and yes, this is an assumption, and if I'm wrong, then I
apologize). The people who are on this list, and the people who are
contributing to this thread, are people who want to see the band, not bash
into each other to the bands live music. 

Now that that's out of the way, here's my take on moshing; 

If you're at a show and you don't want the mosh pit to intrude upon you,
then chances are you're going to have to move. I know that sounds shitty,
but face facts; you're a guy standing on the floor about six people deep
from the stage (at a show where one doesn't really expect moshing, but can't
discount it). All around you, people start moshing. Now you're an
anti-mosher in the middle of this sea of spasming bodies. What are you going
to do? Phoenix Strike every one of them in the throat? I guarantee that
you'll get about two people down before the first of many knives goes
through your ribcage. And NO, this isn't what I would do - I don't mosh, and
I don't particularly like to be up at the front of the stage, either. I'll
hang out in the back by the sound board, thank you. I'm just telling you
people what a very possible scenario is like (Skadz, btw, is very lucky that
the dude that he walked up to wasn't FSU [Fuck Shit Up, a group of people
who go to shows and pick fights because they're very confident they can win
them]). So whether you like it or not, it's most likely in your best
interests to screw outta your hard-earned spot up at the stage, no matter
how wrong that may be, because if you get macho when people mosh, then
you're most likely gonna get hurt. 

Nicholas Giannotti
JointSTARS Contracts
email_address_removed
"Save the whales - collect the whole set."


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:00:05 EDT
From: EVO V <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: 7-String stuff........
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


I love the 7-strings, but I don't have one-YET. I plan on buying one for my
next guitar, its that or a JPM.
     Manny's and Sam Ash here in NYC have a few in stock, last I knew, I was
just there 2 weeks ago, I'll check it out again this weekend. 
The UV7, (The black and green ones) only have green knobs and green pick-up
covers, so there isn't too much green on them.
Andy D
The Next Steve Vai

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:01:10 EDT
From: The iban <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: driving
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


In a message dated 98-05-19 15:57:49 EDT, you write:

<< > If I'm on the road and I'm driving my car like a maniac does it mean the
 > other drivers have some sort of OBLIGATION to get out of my way? >>

if you expect a concert to be as boring as driving, then i sure as hell don't
ever want to see a band that your in live.

Rocky 

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:14:21 -0800
From: email_address_removed (Charoenkwan Luesumphan)
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: Caught in a mosh
Message-ID: <v01540b04b187a4a6d5f5@[205.134.245.116]>


Lisa Marie <email_address_removed> wrote:

>BULLSHIT.  If I've been following this thread correctly, the original post was
>from Sis, who was referring to the Maritime Hall show specifically. There
>were  people there who attempted to start a mosh pit, and it WAS within
>the >first few rows. I have to disagree with your statement that moshers
>have as >much right to enjoy the concert in their own way as anyone
>else...  because >THEIR way of enjoyment RUINS it for everyone else around
>them, and they have >NO right to do that IMO.

Yes. I was the first one who posted about the moshing at Maritime Hall
show. I was in the third row dead center (the sickest row). I DO agree with
Lisa completely that moshers have their right to enjoy concerts but DO NOT
hurt anybody.

>I believe it WAS an insult to the band, because a few assholes were
>keeping a >great many people from enjoying the show.

I think so, too. I have been to many prog concerts and prog fans do enjoy
the show in a nice way. They do not do the silly moshing though.

And I got hurt after the DT show. It would be my fault of being a small girl.
I know that this will not change the attitudes of the moshers if they still
want to do what they want at the shows. I do not want to say that it is
kinda selfish.

Regards,
AE


~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
"Prog Maniac" homepage: http://www.sirius.com/~cluesump



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:09:02 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mike Pontrelli <email_address_removed>
To: Multiple recipients of list <email_address_removed>
Subject: Moshing....
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.94.980519160417.12964C-100000@thunder>


Although an avid fan of moshing (helps me get into music).. I do not want
to mosh at a DT show.  But I still understand the need of those who do.
Sometimes I like when people squish me to the front because I am too lazy
to hold myself up :)
]
Interesting thought... someone said something about moshing being bad
because it ruins the show for others.. (I will not debate this).. but One
thing that hurt an otherwise awesome show (Rush in Toronto) was the lack
of enthusiasm from the audiance. THEY JUST SAT THERE!!!!!  I needed to
stand and air drum VERY badly.. yet I could not because no one else was
standing.  It drove me nuts.  I find it hard to get into a show when I am
not standing.  Are teh Canadians bad because they ruined the show for me
(I am not kidding.. I was hardly into the music because I was sitting
down).  

This has nothing to do with the mosh debate.. I just felt like I needed to
show another way that a show can be ruined for someone..

-Ponte


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:16:49 -0500 (CDT)
From: email_address_removed
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


<<You want common courtesy, then you say, "boo hoo, that's a club gig, deal with 
it." Sorry, you can't have it both ways. >>


OK, here's an idea.  If you guys want to mosh to Dream Theater, here's what you do:

Get a bunch of guys over, put a DT CD in your stereo, turn it up to 11 and start moshing
AWAY from those who want to look at Dream Theater.  If you're not looking at the band on
stage, then you might as well go home and put the CD on.  Thats what a live show is for.
To SEE them.




Matt





------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:17:04 -0500 (CDT)
From: email_address_removed
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3913
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


<<By the way, I LIKE metal.  I don't like moshing.  Is that so wrong?>>

I must also say that, although you supreme metalheads on the Jam 
calling me a wuss for not liking moshing, I do like some metal.  Not 
any of the realy hard stuff, but I do enjoy Yngwie Malmsteen and the
Neo-Classical metal, as well as some Metallica.  What I DONT like
is grunting voices, nothing but heavily distorted guitars (which is what
I think makes Dream Theater not metal, they do stuff like Hollow
Years, Another Day, Anna Lee, and The Silent Man).  I wouldn't go
out and buy a Metallica CD, but I don't not like them.




Matt


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:17:03 -0500 (CDT)
From: email_address_removed
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Prog etiquite
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


>>Having said that, you have no right to tell people that they can't mosh. You can
call it asinine, but as eckie said, if you don't like it, move. How can you say 
that your mode of enjoying a concert is more correct than theirs? As long as you
can stand somewhere to avoid them, we can all get along.<<

Yes, but put it this way, you take the time to get to the show early, and you have
THE best spot, a few rows back, you aren't too close and can see the guys on stage 
perfectly.  Now, some goons start throwing themselves at each other and other people.
You're actually supposed to compromise the space you got for them?  This type of thing
is what grammar school bullies (and to some extent high school) do in order to get what
they want, use force.  Here's something for you moshers:  why don't YOU move?
You're not looking at the stage, all you are is running around into each other like those
pink things in Doom.  Why don't YOU guys go off into a little section and do it there?
thus, the people who are there to WATCH the show can do it at a good view, whilist you,
the mosher, get to mosh your brains out in a nice little portion of the floor, secluded from
the rest of the fans.  BTW, I never said you can't headbang, I don't see anything wrong with
that, you arent injuring anyone and, (unless you have really floppy hair) aren't obstructing
anyone's view.  I have a little problem with people dancing (maybe because I'm too much of
a musician) but there's never dancing at a prog show (lets see them fly girls try 15/8 time!)
so I don't worry about it.  Besides, who am I to complain unless I'm the one on stage.

Oh, and I'll just say this about stage diving:  I hope James kicks anyone trying this is the nads.
That is a rather rude thing to do, you're not the goddamn performer, and unless you're invited
on stage, STAY THE HELL OFF!





Matt



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:27:12 -0400 (EDT)
From: Mike Pontrelli <email_address_removed>
To: Multiple recipients of list <email_address_removed>
Subject: Tall People
Message-ID: <Pine.SOL.3.94.980519161611.12964D-100000@thunder>


True.. if they get their first.. I guess they have a right to their space
(tall people).. but I think it is rude and way too common for them to hog
a space in front of a 5'1" person.  I am 5'9" and I usually will let
smaller people in front of me - cus I dont want to RUIN THEIR SHOW!!!!
(refer to earlier posts about moshing ruining shows).  And all to often
there is a 6'5" person in front of me.  

Also.. "get their ealier" thoughts.. remember.. some people (because of
jobs, etc) CANNOT get their ealier... but again.. some people would say
"boo ****n hoo" Of course.. I do my best  to show up ealier :)  

Here is an example of someone who pissed me off.  I got in line for Birch
hill quite early.  Got into the club. Got up in "2nd row".  was there for
two hours.  Became thirsty to the point of passing out. I had to go byu
some water. Unfortunately I went to the show alone, so I asked some 6'8"
dood behind me "could you please save my spot a minute,..i really need
water".  He said "sure".  Three minutes later I return.. and him and his
6'4" friend would NOT let me back, despite the fact that there *was* room.
They gave me some rude comment.. and I just stayed behind them.
Unfortunately again, they now stood up on a 3" ledge in front of the stage
(making them EVEN TALLER), and the stage was so low that I now could not
even see the faces of the band.  Not even Petrucci who was right in front
of me.  To me.. this guy was more of a dick than moshers.  And this
happens all the time.  IMHO if you are taller than someone.. let them in
front of you.  Then EVERYONE can see the show.  And if someone leaves for
a second.. GIVE THEIR SPOT BACK.  Curtesy.  

Luckily at the Philly show the stage was higher, so it didnt matter as
much.. cus no matter where you were you could see over everyone's head.
And the security gave us water during the show.. as did James after I
screamed for water between songs.

Sorry for the drool.. the heat is affecting me :)

AND CAN SOMEONE GET ME A TOURBOOK PLEASE!!!!! 
PLEASE!!!!

PRETTY DAMNED PLEASE!!!

cheerio :)

-Ponte




------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 16:32:14 -0500 (EST)
From: belhai <email_address_removed>
To: Multiple recipients of list <email_address_removed>
Subject: Re: Caught in a mosh
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


On Tue, 19 May 1998, Brian Hayden wrote:

> Having said that, you have no right to tell people that they can't mosh. You can
> call it asinine, but as eckie said, if you don't like it, move. 

Why should you have to move if you get there first? Granted if the
mosh-idiots were already there, then yes the non-moshing person should go
find somewhere else to stand. 

> And if you would stay out of the way, then there wouldn't be a problem to begin 
> with, would there? It's called compromise. Moshers, as long as they are not 
> seeking you out and injuring you, have just as much right to enjoy the concert 
> in their way as you do.

Not when moshing affects other people who are not moshing. When I saw DT
at the Irving plaza, me and my friends got there before the majority of
the people and sometime during the show a mosh pit started right next to
us. We kept being swayed back and forth because of these losers. Now since
we were there first, are you still gonna say that they had the right to 
mosh? Bullshit.

They're ruining it for others. Some moshing began as Portnoy sang the
first part to "take the time." This was the first DT concert I was at
where Portnoy did this. Of course, I couldn't enjoy it because at the time
I had to keep my balance. The people next to us decided to mosh right at
this moment. 


Brandon



------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:39:19 -0700
From: Carol Dellinger <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Mosh this!
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


I agree with Lisa Marie and Sis.

Our group started the Sat show in the middle about 10-15 rows of people
back from the front...when the music started the crowdd behind us surged
forward and we got crushed.  I could see the moshers start moshing around
the 2nd to 3rd row from the front and saw some Cali Crew members get
moshed.  As the moshing continued MattB and I got sucked towards the front
where it got worse.  When I looked back I couldn ot see my friends and I
got worried that if something happened to MattB or myself they would not be
able to help us.   At one point this nasty, large, foul, drunk, stank, rank
breath,  must have been on a 4 day drunk, asshole came shoving up behind us
in a part dance, part stupor, part mosh and shoved me hard into Matt.  He
moshed past us and I saw him nearly crush little Sis. I know that everytime
he moshed into us I gave him a good shot to the ribs with my elbow, but he
was too far gone to even feel it.  I do understand about the music making
you want to move your body as I am guilty of dancing at concerts (I danced
thru the entire Spock's Beard show)  BUT, if you feel the need to move to
express yourself, do it away from others.  The packed front rows are no
place to mosh or do an arms flailing dance.  Mr. Drunk mosher brought up a
couple of drunk females who proceeded to do the arms flailing dance while
we were packed up there like sardines.  So I caught a couple of elbows!
Here's another word of courtesy.  Yes I do smoke, BUT...if you are packed
like sardines in the front rows...don't light up a cigarette.  I counted 20
times what that Drunk moshing asshole damn near burnt Matt, myself and
others.  Damn, Sarah and Erica are lucky.  I wish we had Skadz with us to
stop the jerks!

Remember, the world does not revolve around us.  There are others there
that paid good money to see a band they enjoy and they have a right to see
a show without fearing from bodily harm.  


Coldfire
email_address_removed	

Gallery of Shadows the Official Shadow Gallery Mailing List
http://www.dreamt.org/galleryofshadows

"Fly where your dreams go....."  Crystalline Dreams - Shadow Gallery

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 15:45:05 -0500
From: "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed, email_address_removed
Subject: Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Responding to the message of <email_address_removed>
from email_address_removed:

"OK, here's an idea.  If you guys want to mosh to Dream Theater, here's what you
do: Get a bunch of guys over, put a DT CD in your stereo" [etc]

You putz, I specifically said that I wouldn't mosh at DT, because it's not that 
kind of scene. 

"Yes, but put it this way, you take the time to get to the show early, and you 
have THE best spot, a few rows back, you aren't too close and can see the guys 
on stage  perfectly.  Now, some goons start throwing themselves at each other 
and other people. You're actually supposed to compromise the space you got for 
them?"

QUIT PUTTING WORDS IN MY MOUTH! I said, explicitly, that people shouldn't start 
a mosh pit where it's obviously not wanted.

"This type of thing is what grammar school bullies (and to some extent high 
school) do in order to get what they want, use force."

What's your point?

" Here's something for you moshers:  why don't YOU move? You're not looking at 
the stage, all you are is running around into each other like those
pink things in Doom.  Why don't YOU guys go off into a little section and do it 
there?"

This is exactly what I said in my last post, you moron! Learn how to read before
you jump on my nads.

As for your whole elitist attitude that moshers are somehow evil and inferior, I
just want to say: eat me, baby. 

-Brian

"You've got to believe in someone, asking me who is right, asking me who to 
                 follow...don't ask me, I don't know." - Ozzy
                             
            Coleridge on IRC  Web: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hayd0029


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 21:00:54 +0000 (Local time zone must be set--see zic manual page)
From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Cc: email_address_removed, email_address_removed, email_address_removed
Subject: moshing debate ...
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


if you wanna continue, take it to private e-mail.

Skadz
Ytsejam Moderator

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 17:25:39 -0400 (EDT)
From: Christian P Kremo <email_address_removed>
To: YtseJam <email_address_removed>
Subject: The big setlist for HoB
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Damn, Bruce D live with DT.  That would never happen in Detroit, but at
least we got to see Nicky Lemons!  Can someone post the setlist for the
second LA show, I'd just like to see how much it changed.  Thanks.

-C#


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 15:12:48 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Johnston <email_address_removed>
To: Multiple recipients of list <email_address_removed>
Subject: Re: Prog etiquite
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


On Tue, 19 May 1998 email_address_removed wrote:

>anyone's view.  I have a little problem with people dancing (maybe because
>I'm too much of a musician) but there's never dancing at a prog show
>(lets see them fly girls try 15/8 time!)

hehehe... that reminds me of a  story...
Every year, there's a folk festival at the U of Oregon (in Eugene, where
I'm going to school), which is basically little more than an excuse for
hippise and neo-hippies to get together and smell bad. ^_^

Annnyways, one of the bands there (a jazz-influenced band called the
African Kings) started going off on this mad riff, something very odd --
all the hippies doing their little hippie-strut (if you've *ever* been to
a Dead/Phish/DMB concert, or any folk festival, you know the one I'm
talking about because it's all the same) got confused and stopped
dancing... beautiful sight to see -- confused hippies.

That story had no point... but I'm obligated to send it. ^_^

>
>Matt
>


--Matt (the other one)

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards.  I got a full
house and four people died."     -- Steven Wright
---------------------------------------------------------------------


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End of YTSEJAM Digest 3916
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