YTSEJAM Digest 3915

Today's Topics:

  1) Re: detailed thrashing
 by Matthew Smith <email_address_removed>
  2) Re: Caught in a mosh
 by Lisa Marie <email_address_removed>
  3) Drum Clinic
 by email_address_removed
  4) Re: 7-string Madness
 by Scott Andrews <email_address_removed>
  5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3912
 by Matt Johnston <email_address_removed>
  6) Re: Caught in a mosh
 by KEZCOM <email_address_removed>
  7) Re: detailed thrashing
 by Scott Andrews <email_address_removed>
  8) So...
 by email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh)
  9) moshing, women, etc 
 by "Ryan P. Skadberg" <email_address_removed>
 10) Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
 by Steve Zebrowski <email_address_removed>
 11) Re: Caught in a mosh
 by "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>
 12) Re: Caught in a mosh
 by "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>
 13) Re: buckshot and vernon reid
 by "earthblind, starbound" <email_address_removed>
 14) Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
 by "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:16:09 -0400 (EDT)
From: Matthew Smith <email_address_removed>
To: Multiple recipients of list <email_address_removed>
Subject: Re: detailed thrashing
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


On Mon, 18 May 1998 Eckie wrote:

> you just haven't opened your mind to the world of heavy music...I mean
> GOOD heavy music.  Like I said, go buy Symphony-X, if you don't love
> their stuff, you're fucked in the head.  Old school metallica is really
> fun stuff to listen to and Megadeth is just awesome.  There is SOOOOO
> much awesome music when you shut yourself off from a genre (of anything,
> ESPECIALLY METAL!!!).  Don't be afraid, open your ears and don't be
> afraid to "get into it."

Eckie has *very* good taste in music....
For a while I was wondering if I posted the above paragraph :)
How could someone who hates metal like DT anyway?  Skip through 2/3 of
each album?

----------------------------------------------------------------------------
Album Currently Playing: Liquid Tension Experiment
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Matt Smith                        "We say revolution...
email_address_removed               With a cast-iron fist"
                                       -Mustaine
----------------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:31:14 -0700
From: Lisa Marie <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: Caught in a mosh
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


>And if you would stay out of the way, then there wouldn't be a problem to
begin 
>with, would there? It's called compromise. Moshers, as long as they are not 
>seeking you out and injuring you, have just as much right to enjoy the
concert 
>in their way as you do.

BULLSHIT.  If I've been following this thread correctly, the original post was
from Sis, who was referring to the Maritime Hall show specifically. There
were 
people there who attempted to start a mosh pit, and it WAS within the first
few rows. I have to disagree with your statement that moshers have as much
right
to enjoy the concert in their own way as anyone else...  because THEIR way of 
enjoyment RUINS it for everyone else around them, and they have NO right to do
that IMO.  

If we were talking about another type of concert, where moshing is the
norm, that 
would be one thing... but the original post was referring to a Dream Theater 
concert. If I had been directly next to one of the moshers, I would have
clocked 
him right in the adam's apple... as it was, I was on the fringe of it and was 
only being pushed by people who were being pushed themselves. I believe it
WAS an 
insult to the band, because a few assholes were keeping a great many people
from 
enjoying the show.

_____________________________________
Lisa Marie
email_address_removed
http://home.pacbell.net/ytsegirl
_____________________________________
THOUGHTS - Spock's Beard Mailing List
http://www.dreamt.org/spocksbeard/
_____________________________________


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:44:38 -0400
From: email_address_removed
Subject: Drum Clinic
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>



Never had a chance to make it to a DT concert, but I am going to a Terry   
Bozzio clinic tonight.  Just thought I'd let everybody know. 8^)  My band   
goes into the studio this weekend as well.  We will be recording a SE7EN   
song EP. I will be submitting one of the songs to the YTSE CD project.   
 Yippee!

Later,
Kevin
http://members.aol.com/rackleyk/amythyst/  

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:39:10 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Andrews <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: 7-string Madness
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


According to The iban:
> 
> 
> In a message dated 98-05-19 12:48:55 EDT, you write:
> 
> << the black and green one was the only Universe they were still
> making in 93 and 94 when petrucci asked Ibanez for a 7 string.>>
> 
> yea, I suppose he was using that on the video because ibanez didn't make his
> custom one yet, and that was the only 7string available.

in 92 they quit making all the other Vai models, white,
multicolored, and green with maple fretboard.  in 95 they quit
making the black one too, but they started up again in 96, and
now they make several RG 7 string models and a black and silver
Universe.

for info on all these models and some others, like the rare
540S7 Sabre 7 string, go to my home page and follow the links
to a web site called 7th Heaven - cool pics and info.

> >>
> i don't know about what he plays live, but in my Ibanez 7
> string promo video he is playing a beautiful blue sunburst, one
> pickup custom Ibanez 7 string.
> >>
> 
> well, everytime i saw him live, he uses a white 7-string, it looks pretty bad
> (good bad).

cool.

> >>i have an extra copy of this Ibanez 7th Heaven promo video,<<
> 
> i am very interested in it, unfortunately, i have no bootlegs or anything at

i have taken the dealing for this to private e-mail, so the
video is probably spoken for.

scott andrews                                  biophysics research
email_address_removed                            chemistry department

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 10:41:37 -0700 (PDT)
From: Matt Johnston <email_address_removed>
To: Multiple recipients of list <email_address_removed>
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3912
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


On Tue, 19 May 1998, Nick Storr wrote:

>Cool! Only make mine a Z1   :)

Gift.  Horse.  Mouth.

Fer God's sake, he'd *give* us a Trinity *each*!!!
That's like turning down a Mustang 'cause your fav car's really a BMW
Z3... lame... ^_^

>
>Nick Storr
>email_address_removed.au
>




--Matt

---------------------------------------------------------------------
"I stayed up all night playing poker with tarot cards.  I got a full
house and four people died."     -- Steven Wright
---------------------------------------------------------------------


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:54:06 EDT
From: KEZCOM <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: Caught in a mosh
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


In a message dated 98-05-19 13:12:26 EDT, Mr. Hayden wrote:

<< Okay, Kez, you just don't get it man. >>

Ah, the beginning of another meaningful response from Brian Hayden. :~)

<<Having said that, you have no right to tell people that they can't mosh. You
can
call it asinine, but as eckie said, if you don't like it, move. How can you
say 
that your mode of enjoying a concert is more correct than theirs? As long as
you
can stand somewhere to avoid them, we can all get along.>>

Wait, Brian, let me get this straight.  I've stood on line since the
afternoon, I've waited for the doors to open, I've moved with the herd to the
front of the stage, but now I HAVE TO MOVE, because someone wants to mosh into
me?  Please explain how that differs from me telling others not to mosh, which
I don't even think I did.  My mode of enjoyment is NOT more or less important,
but at least AS important.

<<You're confusing the people who are actually moshing, and the people who are
trying to crush into the front row. The mosh pit is generally a few rows of 
people away from the stage, for the simple fact that the first few rows are
too 
packed in to move.>>

This is true, I was applying my situation(being crushed) to moshing, and I
apologize for the confusion.  But if there's moshing behind me, most likely
I'm getting crushed, and why do I have to put up with that?  I'm trying to
follow MP's arms and legs, and getting pummeled from behind, which makes it
very tough to enjoy(Now I'm whining).

<<"Move from behind me"? That's what people try to do, but most tall assholes
who 
get in the front won't let anyone get in front of them, which is where the 
problem starts.>>

Tall = Asshole?????  I was unaware of this law of human nature.  Fortunately,
I'm only 6'2" tall, so I don't qualify, by todays' standards.  :~)

<<That's when you get people trying to force their way up, because
some seven foot tall dude in front of them is fighting their every attempt to
be
able to actually see the show.>>

Their "every attempt to be able to see the show"  should have been thought of
before the show starts, by getting there early, standing in line, etc.

<<What right to *you* have to get into *their* space and tell them how to use
it, 
even if that space is a mosh? Once again, if you don't like it, stay the hell 
out. >>

Again, I'll explain, for the hard of hearing:  IT IS MY SPACE IF I'M STANDING
THERE BEFORE YOU.  If you want MY space, get there before me.  Simple.

<<And if you would stay out of the way, then there wouldn't be a problem to
begin 
with, would there? It's called compromise. Moshers, as long as they are not 
seeking you out and injuring you, have just as much right to enjoy the concert
in their way as you do.>>

You are infinitely, hopelessly, seriously WRONG.  That is not compromise.
That is .....................................screw it.  I don't know the word,
and I'm tired of typing.

Thanks for the debate,
:~)
Kez

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 13:58:26 -0400 (EDT)
From: Scott Andrews <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: detailed thrashing
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


> On Mon, 18 May 1998 Eckie wrote:
> 
> > you just haven't opened your mind to the world of heavy music...I mean
> > GOOD heavy music.  Like I said, go buy Symphony-X, if you don't love
> > their stuff, you're fucked in the head.  Old school metallica is really
> > fun stuff to listen to and Megadeth is just awesome.  There is SOOOOO
> > much awesome music when you shut yourself off from a genre (of anything,
> > ESPECIALLY METAL!!!).

there are also a small number of really heavy bands that write
intricate music.  if you like stuff as heavy as DT and even
heavier, but still with progressive songwriting, check out
Meshuggah, Cynic, Spastic Ink, Candiria, for starters.

scott andrews                                  biophysics research
email_address_removed                            chemistry department
******************************************************************
         --- http://www.people.virginia.edu/~sha3u ---
  info & CD reviews         |    Ibanez     |      soundclips of
  of major & underground    |   7 string    |     my prog-thrash
  progressive/thrash metal  |  guitar info  |  metal band ATAXIA
******************************************************************
   "metal isn't dead, it just smells funny." -Zappa paraphrase

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 11:26:35 -0700
From: email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh)
To: email_address_removed
Subject: So...
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>



Anyways... so... like John said... the HoB show Monday night... about a 3
hour set... and fucking BRUCE DICKINSON!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

And Ray Alder!!

-The Doc

-- 
*#&*@#@*(#@#*@(#!@*#(!@#(&!#(@!*#@((#@$(#@(($@#($(#@$@#($@#(*$@(*$*(#(#(##(#(#
computersarefasterthanhumans - devastatetoinnovate - hyperspacialparallelcomp\
email_address_removed = http://progmetal.gmsnet.com = internetcyberwetwaregamedev+
s*o#o$n@@c*o!m^e)s@@t>h<e@@|d~i+g-i%t%a.l@@<M><E><S><S><I><A><H> gaMECoReTeKN0

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 18:29:56 +0000 (Local time zone must be set--see zic manual page)
From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: moshing, women, etc 
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


hey all ...

A couple of quick responses here:

Eckie (the complete psychopath that he is) said:

 > Hey bud, that's the way things work at these shows I've been to.
 > Of course, you can TRY to stop a pit...
 > "Excuse me kind sir...would you please refrain from
 > *thud*...ungha..."

Ummm, its not that hard really.  Just walk up to the 6' 6" 250+ lb
drunk dude and say "Cut it the fuck out, this isn't the show for that
shit"  I did it and it worked like a charm.  And I'm only 6' 150 lbs
:)  (ask D-Man ("oh shit, he's dead"), Deedlit or Sarah, they all saw
me do it (while fearing for my life))

Brian Anderson said:

 > Women?  What, you mean there were women there?  I thought we just
 > determined that women don't like prog :-)

	Well, for the Irving show, alot of the locals were there
(since the boys are all from LI), so it may have been some "i know the 
band phenomenom(sp?).  I still think the Jersey show had better
looking women though, less, but better looking, just ask Johnny
Motown, oh wait, he isn't on the list anymore cuz you guys talk too
much ;)

As for the whole moshing thing.  This is how I look at it.  I love to
go to shows and mosh, BUT i don't like to mosh at shows where
listening and watching is much more enjoyable.  Also, you have to take 
the crowd aspect in to play here.  If you go see Primus or Slayer or
the Bosstones, you KNOW walking in that the floor will be nuts.  If
you walk in to DT, you expect a different crowd and a different
situation.  If I go to see Primus or someone and don't wanna mosh, I
stand to the back of the place because I know.  If I go to DT and
don't wanna mosh, I still go stand up front because most other people
are in the same boat.

I think the other big problem is that a good amount of the moshing
going on at DT shows isn't like a mosh pit at a show where people
expect to mosh.  Lemme put it this way.  I saw Bad Religion at one of
the best clubs in Boston (Avalon for all who were wondering), the
whole entire floor was one big pit.  It was incredible.  But because
people knew what they were doing, no one got hurt, people who fell
down got picked up and made sure they were ok and it was an enjoyable
experience for all.  Yeah, you might get some bumps and bruises, but
that's what you expect if you know what you are doing.  On the other
hand, at a DT show, you have one of two things.  Either some drunk
fucks decide to bump their way up to the front halfway through the set 
and just start jumping around annoying everyone in fucking site (as
happened at the Birch Hill show, right in front of me.  A fight came
about an inch away from starting) or you have people who in another
situation would be great in a mosh pit, but since the people around
them don't know what they are doing, people get annoyed and are more
likely to get hurt.  To me, moshing is almost like an artform, because 
(contrary to popular belief), it isn't just people trying to kill each 
other and bump and push each other around.  There is alot more to it.
And if the people inside or the people on the edges don't know what to 
do to both protect themselves and/or how to keep things going, things
get fucked up and it ain't enjoyable for anyone.

Well, my $0.015

Skadz

---
Ryan Skadberg          | "there's a space beside us
Ytsejam Moderator      |     and there's miles between us
email_address_removed       |  and all around us
http://www.dreamt.org/ |     grows this shade of gray"
                       | _A Pleasant Shade of Gray_ - Fates Warning

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:29:16 -0400 (EDT)
From: Steve Zebrowski <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Do people actually think that those who like to stand in their own 
personal space and enjoy a concert in a club should MOVE to get out of the
way of those who invade the personal space of others?  That's insane and,
yes, selfish.  

If I'm on the road and I'm driving my car like a maniac does it mean the
other drivers have some sort of OBLIGATION to get out of my way?  What if
I'm drunk, too?  Everyone should get out of my way?  What if i like to
throw my dirty, smelly clothes all over the apartment?  That, of course
means my roommates should move, right?  I pay the same rent they do, so
it's my right to be this way and everyone else be damned.  the
aforementioned things are extensions of this faulty logic.

If there is no designated mosh area there should be no moshing.  If there
is a designated mosh area then it should be away from the front of the
stage where people are trying to watch the concert.  

What?  What's that?  Those who mosh are just so into the concert that they
"lose control" of their bodies?  Boo fucking hoo.  What are we?  The
whirling dervishes of the Soufi?  The operative words here are LOSE
CONTROL.  We cannot excuse every behavior that has ever happened because
someone "lost control."  If we did, we'd have to excuse everyone who ever
lost control and stabbed someone 37 times.  Do you realize how many
times that is?  THAT'S losing control.  People who collide with others at
a club gig don't really lose control at all, because they CHOOSE TO LOSE
CONTROL.  Either they choose to flail about like animals or they
choose to drink themselves into oblivion until they actually do "lose 
control."  These are both conscious choices, just like the choice to 
drink when you don't know if you'll be able to control yourself
enough to NOT get behind the wheel of a car later.  Either that or they
are just ignorant and that's no fucking excuse anyway.

What?  What about people who are standing in the back and can't see so
they push their way up front amid all the other people?  Boo fucking hoo
again.  Those people are their for a reason.  You snooze, you lose.
That's club gigs. Stop crying and get there earlier.

Harsh?  Yes, but I have little tolerance for rudeness or ignorance.
Common fucking courtesy, folks.

Steve Z

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 13:34:05 -0500
From: "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: Caught in a mosh
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Responding to the message of <email_address_removed>
from email_address_removed:

> In a message dated 98-05-19 13:12:26 EDT, Mr. Hayden wrote:
> 
> << Okay, Kez, you just don't get it man. >>
> 
> Ah, the beginning of another meaningful response from Brian Hayden. :~)

I think that's a bad sign... ;-)

I'm going to try and seperate this discussion into its two components: moshing 
vs. front-row takeover attempts.

On moshing:

> Wait, Brian, let me get this straight.  I've stood on line since the
> afternoon, I've waited for the doors to open, I've moved with the herd to the
> front of the stage, but now I HAVE TO MOVE, because someone wants to mosh 
> into me?  

That's not what I'm saying. I specifically agreed with Eckie's statement that 
one shouldn't attempt to start a mosh where people obviously don't want it, 
because yes, you're right, that's an invasion of their space. However, if they 
are there and they are moshing, you have no right to tell them to stop. As you 
said yourself, "IT IS MY SPACE IF I'M STANDING THERE BEFORE YOU.  If you want MY
space, get there before me.  Simple."

> This is true, I was applying my situation(being crushed) to moshing, and I
> apologize for the confusion.  But if there's moshing behind me, most likely
> I'm getting crushed, and why do I have to put up with that?  I'm trying to
> follow MP's arms and legs, and getting pummeled from behind, which makes it
> very tough to enjoy(Now I'm whining).

I'll admit that this gets annoying, but like I said before, if there's an actual
pit, and it's not just one or two assholes bouncing around, it's your 
responsibility to get out of *their* way. Having said that, I'll also say that 
people shouldn't start a mosh pit right in front of the stage. Leave that area 
for people who actually want to watch the show.
 
Front row takeovers:

> Tall = Asshole?????  I was unaware of this law of human nature.  Fortunately,
> I'm only 6'2" tall, so I don't qualify, by todays' standards.  :~)

I didn't mean to say that all tall people are assholes, I'm 6'1" myself. :)

> Their "every attempt to be able to see the show"  should have been thought of
> before the show starts, by getting there early, standing in line, etc.

So if some 5'4" person is standing behind you, you're not going to let them get 
in front of you? That's kind of rude, imo. 

I do think, though, that it's really rude of people to try and get to the front 
row by injuring the people in front of them. I usually deal with these types 
with swift punches to the throat, stomach, or face, depending on my mood.

-Brian

"You've got to believe in someone, asking me who is right, asking me who to 
                 follow...don't ask me, I don't know." - Ozzy
                             
            Coleridge on IRC  Web: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hayd0029


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 13:35:52 -0500
From: "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed, email_address_removed
Subject: Re: Caught in a mosh
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Responding to the message of 
<email_address_removed>
from email_address_removed:

> BULLSHIT.  If I've been following this thread correctly, the original post  
> was from Sis, who was referring to the Maritime Hall show specifically. There
> were people there who attempted to start a mosh pit, and it WAS within the
> first ew rows.

All I'm going to say here is, refer to my last post. I do agree that it's rude 
to start up a mosh pit where people aren't into, and are just trying to see the 
band.

-Brian

"You've got to believe in someone, asking me who is right, asking me who to 
                 follow...don't ask me, I don't know." - Ozzy
                             
            Coleridge on IRC  Web: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hayd0029


------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 1998 14:37:30 -0400
From: "earthblind, starbound" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: buckshot and vernon reid
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


>and vernon? yeah, he just kicks ass. he'll pillage my family and come sniffing
>for more. chances are, he'll kick ass if he's playing rap, metal, spoken word
>(which he did OPENING for buckshot in central park), or beating ya moms off in

Fuck you.

You lucky bastard, I bet you get to see Dream Theater and King Crimson concerts, too.

Poor me.  The only good groups who ever come to Gainesville are Phish (who I've
seen once ... kick butt) and the Flecktones (and I had to fuckin' WORK wardrobe
for goddamn La Traviata, opera piece of shit).  Closest DT's come is Tampa, at least
a week-long walk away.

Yeah, yeah, bitch bitch whine whine.  Fuck you too.  I bet you get to see King's
X and stuff (btw the Platypus song on UACM kicks ass).

   "It's going to be either me or everyone else I kill,
    so pray for my quick suicide." - email_address_removed
    This is who I am. -O- http://www.afn.org/~afn39111/

------------------------------

Date: Tue, 19 May 98 14:20:50 -0500
From: "Brian Hayden" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed, email_address_removed
Subject: Re: moshing <or being an idiot in general>
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Responding to the message of <email_address_removed>
from email_address_removed:

This shit:

> What?  What about people who are standing in the back and can't see so
> they push their way up front amid all the other people?  Boo fucking hoo
> again.  Those people are their for a reason.  You snooze, you lose.
> That's club gigs. Stop crying and get there earlier.

Followed by this shit:
 
> Harsh?  Yes, but I have little tolerance for rudeness or ignorance.
> Common fucking courtesy, folks.

Well, fuck you too. Does anyone else see the problem here? You ramble on about 
how people should respect you, and then you show a total lack of regard for 
those who happen to be smaller than yourself. "Common courtesy" would be letting
a short person in front of you. I could just as well say "boo hoo, moshing, 
there's club gigs for ya', get over it."

You want common courtesy, then you say, "boo hoo, that's a club gig, deal with 
it." Sorry, you can't have it both ways. 

-Brian

"You've got to believe in someone, asking me who is right, asking me who to 
                 follow...don't ask me, I don't know." - Ozzy
                             
            Coleridge on IRC  Web: http://www.tc.umn.edu/~hayd0029


------------------------------

End of YTSEJAM Digest 3915
**************************