YTSEJAM Digest 3845 Today's Topics: 1) How I got into DT by "Death Lord" 2) Re: Theory 1 by Kevin Carmouche 3) Ytsejam Tattoo by Pat Griffin 4) some of you have some serious insecurites by Kevin Carmouche 5) thursday / friday by "Ryan P. Skadberg" 6) oh boy! by Deedlit 7) More by email_address_removed 8) Re: some of you have some serious insecurites by "Brian Hayden" 9) RUSH boot.. by Aune 10) I GOTTA respond to that one... by Eckie ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:21:56 -0400 From: "Death Lord" To: Subject: How I got into DT Message-ID: I was wondering how everyone first heard DT. I heard them every once in a while on a rock station 94.9 from lansing (MI). They played "Pull Me Under" every once in a while at night when I was closing at Little Caesars. I thought it kicked so much ass, and initially thought it was Queensryche. That was I think sometime in 1995 (possibly 1994 but probably not). It was a long time until I finally heard the DJ tell the name of the band and song. When I went to college, I got a bunch of CDs through Columbia House, and I thought I would buy Images & Words (for Pull Me Under) and I also got ACOS because it was the only other one offered. After I got them, it took a while for me to get used to this new style. At first I didn't like it, since I was used to Grunge and Heavy Metal. However, I started listening to those two CDs everyday and I really started to like them. Then, when I was at Media Play, I looked through for DT stuff and found Awake. I thought it was a new album (I didn't know what was going on back then--I just liked what I heard). I really liked that album, since it was DT but with a heavier sound. When I was in the mall one time, I looked through the DT section and found Live At the Marquee. I instantly bought it, although it was expensive at that store (considering it was an import, I didn't really care). It was cool for me since I didn't know of any of the WDADU stuff, so it was cool. I got FII the day it came out, and at first I thought it was different. I thought that it was very heavy in many parts, yet still had the progressive element. I really like FII. It showed another side of DT--a more moving side. Some of Petrucci's solos give me goose bumps. I wanted more, so I went on a quest for WDADU. I found it at Best Buy. Unfortunately, my fan belt on my car decided to snap, so I was stranded until I was pulled back to my apartment. At first, I REALLY disliked Dominnici's voice. It was almost unbearable. After many listens, I really like the album. His voice doesn't really bother me anymore. I mostly focus on the ass-kicking playing. Man, that album totally blows me away. I think it is more technical than the other albums in my opinion. I don't think it's the best, though. The vocals really hurt it, and I think that's why no one seems to talk about that album much. I like it though. I also recently bought the Hollow Years single, not because I like the song (I usually skip it), but because it had You or Me, and also had The Way It Used To Be. I have the Silent Man single ordered, but its on backorder right now. Because of DT, I got APSOG from Fates Warning and also got Shadow Gallery: Carved in Stone. I am definately glad I bought I&W and ACOS initially. If not, I would not be so into time changes and other progressive elements. Now, when I play music in my head, it has a progressive metal sound. If only I could play a damn instrument! (I like to mess around on the keyboard, but I don't really know much, but I still want to buy this AWESOME keyboard I played at a store for $500!) I also got LTE, but I gotta buy it again due to the theft of my car stereo with that cd in it. Anyway, I'm interested to know about how others got into DT. Death Lord ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:15:15 -0500 From: Kevin Carmouche To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Theory 1 Message-ID: > > My friend, I hate to jump on a fellow jammer's ass, but almost > > everything you said is total idiocy. > > That's a logical fallacy on your part. Attack the argument, not the > opponent. > Well, after the many attacks on ME, you present yourself as pretty much a hypocrite. I did not say that HE was an idiot, just that his statements were, IMO, idiocy. However, I think I may attack you and your arguments, since you did that so well against me. These will probably be my last posts anyway.... > > You say you don't see anybody > > wanting to play music they don't write??? Don't tell that to the > > many classical or jazz musicians out there(though jazz musicians > > create as they play other's songs) There is alot to be said for > > being able to take someone else's music and putting your own > > interpretation into it. > > I don't think he said that. Further, when you play jazz, you are > supposed to be writing it yourself in a sense. You reinvent the > composition with your own themes and motives and styles. You involve > your own techniques and melodic concepts. Your comping can completely > change the song. Listen to Tribal Tech's Stella by Starlight. It's > so reharmonized that the original tune is almost obscured. So that's > really not applicable to what you're saying... still, lots of people > want nothing more than to play other people's music, so I don't > entirely disagree with you. > Let me say this, I don't need you to lecture me on jazz, I've grown up my whole life listening to jazz, I know, I'm sure, quite a bit more about that subject than you do. You bring up Tribal Tech, well, Let Me Bring up guys like Pete Fountain, who would take a tune, perfrom it beautifully, yet almost strictly the melody, with very little improvisation. You don't REINVENT the song, you take the song, you go through the melody, then you improvise around that melody. That is the basic format of most jazz, not saying that things may veer from that. > > OH yeah, a band of crap like Prodigy can say that, because they are > > not true artists of music, they are entertainers. > > How do you justify your judgment of art? One of my favorite > projects is Orbital's In Sides. That's all trance music. Are you > going to say that's not music? How is Prodigy not art? If an artist > expresses exactly what he or she intends to express, and isn't limited > in this expression by a lack of understanding, lack of vision (in the > mental sense), or a lack of ability, how is this any different in rap > than it is in prog metal. The views you are espousing are alarmingly > elitist. You don't have a very open perspective on music or art, if > you stand by what you're saying. > Yeah, I guess having standards is elitist. There is a difference between entertainment and music. One can use music to entertain, but not every entertainer does that. All entertainers are artists, because it is an art to be able to entertain, just as it is an art to play music, to paint, to write, or to speak. There is a serious problem with today's society not being able to just say what is good and what sucks. And when you do, you're viewed as a close-minded elitist. No, I personally think that a close minded person is a person who refuses to take the effort out to look for quality. The "Anything is Art" mentality is what continues to tear down our culture. > > My definition of music(not saying that this is the almighty word of > > God) is this: an art form in which different sounds are produced in > > a comprehensive blend of melody, harmony, rhythm and form. > > Is this "music" or "true music"? Further, disestablish my > understanding that "entertainers" like Prodigy or Coolio (as a > rapper) satisfy ALL of these criteria. By your definition, which I > disagree with in the first place, Prodigy is certainly music. Coolio > is too. In fact, I can only think of one example that isn't "music" > by your definition, and that is what is considered by people much more > scholarly than yourself to be "chance music" in which everything falls > to chance, and wherein the exact reproduction of a piece of chance > music is statistically unlikely. > Where is the melody in Prodigy and Coolio??? Can you take their music and play it on a saxophone for instance??? Where is the harmonic complexity of it?? Sure, there is rhythm, and there is form, so yeah, it matches some of what "My" criteria is(and I never said that I think it's the final word, you never even try to give any of your own definitions, you only attack mine) What is Coolio, and most rapper's claim to fame??? Taking other people's hits, ripping off their background, and rapping over it. You're saying that that's being a musician??? > > While style is one thing, technique and > > theory is a totally different thing. One cannot appropriately > > express his or her style without having the ability to do it. > > Technique and theory are in no way related. Style may well > encompass every aspect of a musician's being. Style CAN NOT be > argued in qualitative terms, IMO. Technique absolutely can. Theory > is debatable. Ability, however, is more a matter of musical vision > and technical prowess than anything else. I agree about Style, it can't be argued, and if you read the rest of my message, you would have realized that. Technique, of course can be argued, and I also think that Theory can. When you play a melodic or improvised line, you need to have it match the chords in the background, which is all theory. > > When you look at > > great musicians, what do they have in common?? They all KNOW THEORY. > > > > This just drips falsehood. I mean, it's oozing. You're going to > saturate the jam with your uninformed and easily falsified opinion. > Even those musicians whom most of us look up to for inspiration in > Jazz, which I believe to be the most difficult of all western musical > forms, by leaps and bounds, often have NO theory knowledge. There are > groups of recognized jazz masters who couldn't play you an Eb Phrygian > scale from F# to F#. For these masters, jazz was an understanding of > the sounds of certain progressions, and the melodies they understood > in their heads. Is this any less significant than those who know > theory and play exactly the same level of music? How could it be? > The ends are the same, the means are then irrelevant. > Now, There you go again with personal attacks. Give me some specific examples...you can't exactly do that can you??? Yeah, most of us liek John Coltrane, Miles Davis, Charlie Parker, and you know what??? They all knew Theory. They knew their instruments, knew chordal structures, so you can take what you said there and shove it till you give me some more concrete names or something. And let me tell you something, Much of jazz is written for horns, and it is not exactly easy for horn players to play in certain scales and keys. Benny Goodman, Stan Getz, Clifford Brown, didn't play in certain keys because they did not lend themselves to the instrument. > > They use that as the basis of what they are doing. Do we consider > > rappers to be great musicians?? hell no, or at least i hope not, > > very few of them know much, if anything, about MUSIC, they know how > > to entertain, and know how to write words, but that's about it... > > That's just elitism. There are many rappers who by your definition > certainly deserve to be considered great musicians. A lot of people > just go off on rap or techno or ambient music as though it's beneath > them. This is one instance in which the appropriate argument IS to > say "If it's so easy, let's see you do it." It's NOT as easy as you > wish it was. There isn't a form of music that exists that can push > rap or techno into the realm of obscurity, nor is there one that can > make jazz or prog more "musical" or more "respectable" than another. > To hold to the beliefs you're offering is PURE elitism. There's just > no way around it. If you want to be an elitist, more power to you, > but understand that those of us who disagree with you do have some > logical criticisms for you, whereas your own criticism so far has been > nothing more than putting your opinion above that of others. > I don't claim to be able to rap, just as I don't claim to be a great speaker, or be a great writer, it is something that only rappers can do, and yes, it's a talent in and of itself. I don't put my opinion above all others, just as I don't put mine as a "Better" opinion as yours, although you seem to think yourself as being better than me because you're so "open-minded." As I said before, I don't expect ANYONE to agree with me, since most people have the same opinion as yours, that anything is musical art, and should be recoginzed as that, instead of having standards and trying to bring up the better aspects of music. I'd rather be elitist than be like you. Oh well, there's nothing like some good debating eh??? :) -- Geaux Tigers!!!! http://www.angelfire.com/la/qryche/index.html "I Know If I Try, I'll Get Where I'm Going/ Keeping My Eyes On the Sky" -"Some People Fly" by Queensryche ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 23:26:16 -0500 (CDT) From: Pat Griffin To: ThE NuGgeTjAm Subject: Ytsejam Tattoo Message-ID: > Okay, here's the scoop: I have a tattoo of the Ytsejam on my shoulder. All of us? You must have a pretty big shoulder. h t t p : / / w w w . p r o g n o s i s . c o m / g a b b o / | Pat Griffin email_address_removed Reality Squared Design | h t t p : / / w w w . p r o g n o s i s . c o m / g a b b o / ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:25:11 -0500 From: Kevin Carmouche To: email_address_removed Subject: some of you have some serious insecurites Message-ID: Maybe I should have clarified that, since i see that so many of you people are so insecure you think i'm talking bad about YOU, I meant literally that people think they can play anything that "feels good" without any knowledge, or feel, for what they're doing. I can't believe that you would think I'd be telling YOU PERSONALLY THAT YOU CAN'T PLAY WHAT YOU WANT. Go play a recorder out of your ass for all i care, and personally, i think that with an attitude like yours your music would probably suck too, so take that "prick"....(and yeah, the music i do isn't anything that great either, so the same applies to me..heh) I'm sorry that things are getting personal, but when i get attacked, i attack back.... > There's some simplicity for you, where the guys think they can > pluck anything that "feels good" > >This is exactly what I do, and I'm damn proud of it. You're saying I can't? Too >fucking bad, buddy. Sure, 90% of guitar players are faster than me, have better >technique...but I write exactly what I want to, nothing less and nothing more. I >didn't ask you to listen to it, prick, so don't tell me how to write it. ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 04:42:12 +0000 (Local time zone must be set--see zic manual page) From: "Ryan P. Skadberg" To: email_address_removed Subject: thursday / friday Message-ID: can someone please mail me any information on get togethers before the NY and NJ shows :) Maybe I will show up ;) Also, at the shows Thursday and Friday, look for the Green Hooded Ytsejam Sweatshirt wearing Jesus looking dude and come say hi to him err, me ;) Skadz, who will one day have the free time to read the jam again :) --- Ryan Skadberg | "there's a space beside us Ytsejam Moderator | and there's miles between us email_address_removed | and all around us http://www.dreamt.org/ | grows this shade of gray" | _A Pleasant Shade of Gray_ - Fates Warning ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 00:56:14 -0400 From: Deedlit To: email_address_removed Subject: oh boy! Message-ID: Thanks for all your help with directions in NYC, guys! :) I appreciate it a TON! Now for NDTC...I just wrote my first REAL song today...I'm so happy! :} Of course it needs work (and lyrics), but it's like...whole...complete! Woohoo! Sorry, I just had to blabber to someone about it. Y'all probably could give a rat's rear, because I didn't really use any music theory (not that I don't know it, mind you) writing the song. ;) Have a great day.... 8:00 hours until my first final, 2 days and change until DT!!!!!! Erica ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Erica Bonomi, email_address_removed Deedlit or Deedo on irc.dreamt.org 2112 ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.skidmore.edu/~ebonomi/ Check here for the mp3 of the week! ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 1998 00:17:31 +0000 From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: More Message-ID: > From: "Adam Cook" > Did I ever argue that music theory was god? No...however, I will admit > that perhaps "rules" was not the right terminology I wanted to use. Put it > this way, I think a certain understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm > (call this understanding "theory" if you wish, I don't really care) is > necessary. Well, you understand the concern of the people speaking out about this.... what you've described really isn't music theory, so to call it such, is really a vague and misleading comment. > Theory is nothing more than a shortcut. It's a shortcut to try to explain > WHY notes or combinations of notes can sometimes work and sound good and > why they sometimes don't. Music is about tension and release. If you have a > piano handy walk over to the keyboard right now and play a C major scale up > 7 tones. When you get to the high B, what note does your ear want to hear > next? It wants you to finish the sequence and play the high C to resolve > the tension. Your ear is just BEGGING you to play that final high C. > Half-step resolution is the strongest in all of music. That's just because your ear is used to hearing this. By deviating from scales, I have found that my ear often begs me to do things like resolve the above scale to the nearest b6 below (in this case G#). I don't think that this "begging" has anything to do with the nature of music. I think it has to do only with what you're used to and what you expect. Developed completely on experience. > While anybody can argue that listening to music is completely subjective, > I argue that there is a certain amount of objectivity involved. I agree to disagree vehemently on that. > I can't > proove that everybody will want to hear tension and resolution in music, > maybe some people like to hear fingernails on a chalkboard replacing your > typical guitar solo and they call that music. That's not fair. You're basically just saying "Some people would rather hear things that I don't like, and call it music. But people tell me that I'm right, so I must be." You will see that music scholors, if you do any research, have always criticized even the greatest composers. Jazz wasn't always a respected artform either. > But among those who listen to > music as an artform and are scholors on the subject as opposed to those who > listen to it as background entertainment, there will probably be some > consensus as to what qualifies as music and what qualifies as nails on a > chalkboard. Foo Fighters might write catchy songs, but what impact do they > have on artistical history? Catchy songs are WHY YOU PLAY GUITAR, Adam. The Beatles redefined music completely when they arrived. What are they? Theory masters? They're about as technically and theoretically proficcient and quite a bit more subtance influenced than bands like the Foo Fighters. What impact will the Foo Fighters have in history? How could I know? Maybe they'll be like Wyld Stallyns (incidentally, I don't think the Foos are that amazing. I like a couple of their tunes, but don't own any of their discs. I'm only using them as an example). Who can possibly know? > There's a difference between pop culture and art, I don't care if I am > being elitist. I listen to all types of music but because of subjectivity > there's some I don't like. Who ever asked you to like or dislike anything? What I'm asking is for people to consider what they're judging. If you say that Jazz is more relevent or "better" in any objective way than pop music, you're just ignorant of music from any perspective of its history and continuum. > I don't think there's anything WRONG with it > though because it goes against the "rules" Just in case I misunderstood... you mean "They aren't going against "rules" right? Because if they are, you'd have at least some burden to establish for us what these rules are, and how they're being broken. >. There's just certain music that > is more harmonically, melodically, and rhythmically varied and therefore I > think is more interesting! Bravo. Do you want fries with that? That's exactly what we're saying. Dig what you want, for whatever reasons you want. If that means you dig something that is bizarre and atonal, or sloppy and tone deaf, who is to say you're wrong? No one. There is no objective standard to tell you when something is no longer "good" music. > I guess I'll just have to suffer missing out on > all these great pop groups because of my elitist attitude...too bad. While we're getting cocky, you might want to consider that your responding to a post that wasn't directed at your post, and thus, my points were not intended to argue against yours. Let's keep our little dicks in out little pants and avoid cheap shots. > The classic music of Bach and Ellington and Miles is what has and will > survive over decades and even centuries, not the Foo Fighters (Sorry Chris). How do you know? And what about the Beatles, Sabbath, and Zep? You don't think they have AT LEAST the staying power of Duke or Miles? Miles and Duke have faded from the ears of most people already. They may always be acknowledged by the "I'm better than you" Berklee people or the "Music Scholars" but what does that mean to anyone? Nothing. Jazz will always be a big thing to jazz fans, and thus, it will continue. The Beatles will always be a huge part of Rock and Roll, and Rock and Roll has a MUCH bigger and equally devoted following. I'll bet you that 20 years from now 9 out of 10 people can still sing you some Beatles stuff, whereas maybe 1 out of 20 will be able to hum any part of Giant Steps. I am a huge fan of jazz, but I have no illusion that my music is much more influenced by Coltrane and Parker than bands like the Beatles. I play rock and roll. Go Home and Practice! Chris Ptacek email_address_removed http://www.prognosis.com/madsman ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 6 May 98 00:37:07 -0500 From: "Brian Hayden" To: email_address_removed, email_address_removed Subject: Re: some of you have some serious insecurites Message-ID: Responding to the message of Tue, 5 May 1998 21:50:00 -0700 (PDT) from Kevin Carmouche : > Maybe I should have clarified that, since i see that so many of you > people are so insecure you think i'm talking bad about YOU, I meant > literally that people think they can play anything that "feels good" > without any knowledge, or feel, for what they're doing. Bullshit. You said anyone who tries to play music and doesn't know theory sucks. But even if you hadn't said that, just look at the above quote. Why shouldn't someone play "anything that feels good without any knowledge, or feel, for what they're doing?" First, they obviously have "some feel" for what they're doing if it "feels good." Second, they're not making you listen to it; why in the *hell* do you care what they do? I'd say you're the insecure one. It preys on your mind, just shakes the shit out of your tight little world, that someone, somewhere, maybe writing music that you don't consider art. > I can't believe > that you would think I'd be telling YOU PERSONALLY THAT YOU CAN'T PLAY > WHAT YOU WANT. Then you're an idiot, because you said it before and you say it in the above quote. > personally, i think that with an attitude like yours your music would > probably suck too, so take that "prick".... That's asinine. How many of the "great musicians" that you worship have been completely nice, calm, even-keeled people. About zero, I'd guess. > I'm sorry that things are getting personal, but when i get attacked, i > attack back.... You attacked every one of us who writes music without being schooled in theory. You asked for it, so go fuck yourself. -Brian ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 09:03:11 From: Aune To: email_address_removed Subject: RUSH boot.. Message-ID: I just bought a RUSH boot, anyone know have it or know stuff about it? cover says: Recorded LIVE in U.S.A. 1992 tracklist: 1. Force ten 2. Time stands still 3. Bravado 4. Roll the bones 5. Big money 6. Ghost of a chance 7. Closer to the heart 8. Superconductor 9. Tom Sawyer if you know something, mail me or post here.. op777 ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:24:23 -0700 From: Eckie To: email_address_removed Subject: I GOTTA respond to that one... Message-ID: Kevin "I'm right, dammit!" Carmouche wrote: > There is a difference between entertainment and music. One can use music to entertain, but not every entertainer does that. All entertainers are artists, because > it is an art to be able to entertain, just as it is an art to play > music, to paint, to write, or to speak. Let's not mince words here, bud. I personally always saw it as an "ability" to execute art, or as every mom on the planet has labelled it, "Oh! What TALENT! What a GIFT!" We could look at car manufacturing as an artform, or pizza flipping as an art form, so long as we're willing to get really deep into the processes of creating those things, emotionally. :) That's a tangent I don't think anybody wants to see a thread on though.... > And when you do, you're viewed as a close-minded elitist. No, I > personally think that a close minded person is a person who refuses to > take the effort out to look for quality. The "Anything is Art" > mentality is what continues to tear down our culture. I think it's the other way around. Without using the term close-minded....oh fuck it.... Turning your head away from any kind of art without a good examination of it only creates a fleeting and untenable opinion of that piece of artwork! I don't know how many pieces of art or music that I've seen/listened to at a glance and shrugged off as uninteresting, only to return to it much later and find the little things within the composition, the structure, the textures that took so much time or effort for the artist to put together, stuff that I missed at a glance that made the artwork stand out and strike me in the ass. "Don't judge a book by its cover..." This "Anything is Art" attitude is one that I share, and given the proper light, I feel it can be constructive for society. If the artist decides that a washing machine and a cat being skinned by a dull teaspoon are going to make a great song, then he's (using "he" as the English neutered pronoun, for all you grammar nazis out there) going to do whatever it takes to reach that goal of a good composition using those media. And if it works, hey, there's a new great piece of music! It's the same basic approach applied in any creative process. That isn't to say we all don't have our preferences towards one genre or another. Sure, I'll tell you any day that I don't like Korn, but I can pull out one or two ideas that they spawned (see Shoots and Ladders, and Faggot) that I appreciated, because I took the time to give them a thorough listen instead of snuffing them off as some hard core "trend metal band." I think Coolio has some fun tunes too, if you don't appreciate it as a valid art form, it's not like I, or the millions of rappers/rap fans out there are really gonna give a rat's ass, they're gonna continue to rap. It's different from jazz or classical, it's a wholey different twist in the sonic expression we call MUSIC! > Where is the melody in Prodigy and Coolio??? Who said you _needed_ to have melody to create a song? > Can you take their music and play it on a saxophone for instance??? You're not supposed to. > Where is the harmonic complexity of it?? Who said it needed to be complex to be good? > What is Coolio, and most rapper's claim to > fame??? Taking other people's hits, ripping off their background, and > rapping over it. You're saying that that's being a musician??? I don't appreciate it much myself either, but I do recognize remixing as an art form, as I do collages and found-object sculptures. There was this one artist who gave a lecture last year at ASU and her work was mainly taking junky pieces of art work discarded by the original artists, and collaging them together in her own bizarre abstract compositions. I thought it was all bullshit, personally, but if the venue interests her and she's willing to suffer critical or financial hardship for travelling that direction, so be it...that's what artists with integrity do. > As I said before, I don't expect ANYONE to > agree with me, since most people have the same opinion as yours, that > anything is musical art, and should be recoginzed as that, instead of > having standards and trying to bring up the better aspects of music. Nya nya, I don't agree! Poopyhead! Everybody has their own opinions on what is "good art/music" and what is "bad art/music," everybody's a critic. You're probably gonna hurt my feelings and say you don't like Picasso's work in your next post. > I'd rather be elitist than be like you. That's too bad, you're gonna miss out on some kick ass ideas. ~Eckie wrote all that? Sheeit.... ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3845 **************************