YTSEJAM Digest 3844 Today's Topics: 1) Vignette by Adam Barnhart 2) Re: "INTRO" tape help needed by MTeiper 3) Ignorance by Calvin 6S 4) Blind Guardian in Metal Maniacs! by MTeiper 5) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3843 by "Adam Cook" 6) Yes/Union and Steve Howe/Turbulence by The Digital Man 7) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3843 by Eckie 8) Re: INTRO tape help needed.... by email_address_removed.au (Paul Dyer) 9) Zappa and Thal and stuff by email_address_removed 10) Speak To Me/ Wasteland by "Richard A. Rivera" 11) guitar flick by Joe DeAngelo 12) tickets to Irving Plaza show by "Alex O'Connell" 13) (VERY NDTC) Re: And your point is...? by Jon Parmet 14) Re: (VERY NDTC) damn! by Lisa Marie 15) Re: (VERY NDTC) Re: And your point is...? by The Digital Man 16) Attention St. Louis (and surrounding area) jammers! by Jeff Perrot ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 17:18:01 -0700 From: Adam Barnhart To: email_address_removed Subject: Vignette Message-ID: I guess I've gotten to the point where I'm just gonna say something... >From: Calvin 6S >Subject: Music Theory shoved right down your trote, I mean throat > >They play Power Chord rhythms (Root-Perfect fifth). Not only do the do the >dreaded "Parallel fifths" but some even make it more of an atrocity by >throwing in the "Parallel Octaves". [...] > >Well, guess what - even Classical composers "broke" this rule. Some of the >coolest pieces have Parallel Octaves. Parallel Fifths would be less evident >however. Yeah. If you take a theory class and write parallel fourths, fifths, or octaves, you're going to see a lot of red lines connecting the dots. It's something like the equivalent of the little paragraph break symbol all over a proto-journalist's work. But it's the use of precisely that kind of parallel motion that makes Aaron Copland, for example, a great composer. It also allows you a lot of harmonic liberty if you're improvising over it....but that's a point that's been beaten to death in the discussion of Slayer. >From: Thrak75 >Subject: music theory > >and what's the fetish with speed? stop it- there's more to a woman than her >breasts, for crying out loud. The Hell you say.... >From: Ernesto Schnack >Subject: Re: Theory 2 > >> One of my favorite counter examples to your proposed rule of music >> above is Arnold Schoenberg, the early 20th century composer. He > >And the really fucked up thing was, that he developed that system >because he was so conservative he knew music was supposed to evolve... He knew that music wasn't a static art form, if that's what you mean. The above doesn't entirely make sense to me. Schoenberg was something of a musical revolutionary...the tone row is a very, very important part of the musical lineage of this century. Then again, I went to UCLA, so I'm SUPPOSED to say that, eh? >I just like to add a little something to this discussion: we dont >even know what the fuck music is, or what it's purpose is. Sure we >can define it as organized sound or whatever, but we really dont know >what it is. So tell me, if we dont know what the fuck it is, or what >the fuck it's for, how on earth can we think there is actually a >'proper' way to go about writing and performing it? This is a relativistic comment that doesn't, to my eyes, mean a lot. I'm trying to be diplomatic about it, but it's hard for me...I really don't agree with this an awful lot. What does "we really don't know what it is" mean? It IS an organization of sound. It communicates complicated ideas. We know it's an art form...and, perhaps, the most abstract of all art forms. We know it's a medium through which people convey cognitive and emotive material. We know it from a sonic sense and, anthropologically and sociologically, we know quite a bit about the roles it plays. Of course, there's a mystery to music precisely because of its abstractness. But that doesn't mean that we don't "know" what it is. We SURE know quite a lot about what it's for. And there are certain things that we know about sonic qualities -- a minor second is a dissonant interval, an octave is a consonant interval. Lydian movement tends to resonate with us differently, emotionally, than Phrygian movement. Loud staccato sounds get our attention more fully than soft, gradually swelling and receeding sounds. We gravitate towards certain rhythms and favor a degree of rhythmic constance based on bipedal movement, the beating of our heart, and other, naturally occuring forms of rhythmic organization. I guess I'm starting to beat a dead horse here. I'm not in the "you can't play an Eb over an E5" boat, but I DO believe that there are ramifications to certain harmonic, melodic, tibral, and rhythmic choices made in the music. I think Rush makes the best decisions of all. A lot of the bands we talk about here -- Yes, Metallica, Altura, Marillion -- also make tremendous decisions, musically. Slayer, to me, makes less appealing decisions. I specifically dislike some of the decisions that, say, Depeche Mode, makes. But for such a hierarchy to exist (and I'd guess, based on all the Top 10 lists you see [though not HERE, of course], that most listeners have favorites of one sort or another), there has to be some level of propriety in the process of making and performance music. I think it's disingenuous to argue otherwise. I think the content of that hierarchy is the real meaningful point of entry into the discussion. Five Gratuitous CD's: ===================== 1. Yes: Fragile 2. Weather Report: Night Passage 3. Wagner: Die Meistersinger 4. Rush: 2112 5. Dar Williams: The Honesty Room Adam D. Barnhart email_address_removed email_address_removed http://www.cfmc.com/adamb ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:50:11 EDT From: MTeiper To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: "INTRO" tape help needed Message-ID: Howdy Jammerz - > I made a tape for a friend with "LIquid Tension Experiment" taking up > all of side 1 and the first 28 min of side 2, leaving me with about 20 > min. I want him to REALLY like this tape so that he gets into Dream > Theater :) My question is... what song would fit best on the remaining 20 > min? I would prefer it would be a DT song but it doesnt have to be. I've > kicked around putting Hells Kitchen and LitS, but i think sticking to > instrumentals would work best.. Here's a thought, if you have access to a VCR hookup to your tape deck.... The entire TLF plus JP's solo from the Tokyo video!!! That solo has to be one of the most wonderful instrumental jams I've ever heard. Laterz.... Matt T. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:53:43 EDT From: Calvin 6S To: email_address_removed Subject: Ignorance Message-ID: Ernesto Schnack stated with an air of superiority: "For the uninformed" This is the '90s my friend. I prefer to be called ignorant. And when we enter the New Millenium, I will prefer "informationally challenged". ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:10:49 EDT From: MTeiper To: email_address_removed Subject: Blind Guardian in Metal Maniacs! Message-ID: Hey - Just got my new Metal Maniacs magazine yesterday, and I've read about half of it so far, but thus far, it looks like a winner of an issue. There's a NICE article with Blind Guardian in it, and it's actually done by an interviewer who loves the band! (What a concept, eh?) I won't rehash the whole aricle, but after reading it, I want to get their CD's now more than ever! Hey, Jason, what's the status of the Century Media deal for their back catalog? I am not a musician, so I may be wrong about this, but damn, this sounds insane: BG talks about their latest album, and they say that the "smallest" song on the new album was recorded with 80 tracks, and the "biggest" was recorded with 140 tracks! Is it me, or are those figures absolutely staggering?!? Holy crap, the recording sessions must have been a pain in the ass! Lesse, what else in this issue: cool Slayer article (I'm actually looking forward to the new album. I thought DI and UA sucked royally, but they claim the new album, "Violent By Design", is diverse. And, a Jammer has confirmed this, so I'm psyched). Also, they say that the new Crimson Glory comes out "before the summer", and Chroma Key comes out in June. There's also a killer review of In Flames "Whoracle", and if you haven't picked this one up yet, DO IT!! And, there's a cool looking Bruce Dickinson article, but I haven't had time to read it yet. :-) That's it for now. Got some reading to do. Laterz....... Matt T. NP: Shadow Gallery "Warcry" on Repeat!! This song is so great, it just gives me chills every time! 8-P ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:27:24 -0400 From: "Adam Cook" To: Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3843 Message-ID: Hey guys, Did I ever argue that music theory was god? No...however, I will admit that perhaps "rules" was not the right terminology I wanted to use. Put it this way, I think a certain understanding of harmony, melody, and rhythm (call this understanding "theory" if you wish, I don't really care) is necessary. Now, am I saying that in order to be a musician you have to go out and study books? No. People can learn this theory on their own just by doing two things, listening and playing. I think that over time, almost all musicians will accumulate some sort of relative pitch. This means that you can throw out scales and theory if you know exactly what a note is going to sound like when you play it. No longer do you have to think "C dorian over a C minor 7 chord" but you can just clear your mind and play because you know internally where to put your fingers in order to play a particular sequence of notes. Steve Vai has said that he plays at his best when he just forgets everything and plays. That's what improvisation is, and some of these rock and metal players leave me dry on that because all they're playing is a bag of licks, not true improvising. Theory is nothing more than a shortcut. It's a shortcut to try to explain WHY notes or combinations of notes can sometimes work and sound good and why they sometimes don't. Music is about tension and release. If you have a piano handy walk over to the keyboard right now and play a C major scale up 7 tones. When you get to the high B, what note does your ear want to hear next? It wants you to finish the sequence and play the high C to resolve the tension. Your ear is just BEGGING you to play that final high C. Half-step resolution is the strongest in all of music. While anybody can argue that listening to music is completely subjective, I argue that there is a certain amount of objectivity involved. I can't proove that everybody will want to hear tension and resolution in music, maybe some people like to hear fingernails on a chalkboard replacing your typical guitar solo and they call that music. But among those who listen to music as an artform and are scholors on the subject as opposed to those who listen to it as background entertainment, there will probably be some consensus as to what qualifies as music and what qualifies as nails on a chalkboard. Foo Fighters might write catchy songs, but what impact do they have on artistical history? There's a difference between pop culture and art, I don't care if I am being elitist. I listen to all types of music but because of subjectivity there's some I don't like. I don't think there's anything WRONG with it though because it goes against the "rules". There's just certain music that is more harmonically, melodically, and rhythmically varied and therefore I think is more interesting! I guess I'll just have to suffer missing out on all these great pop groups because of my elitist attitude...too bad. The classic music of Bach and Ellington and Miles is what has and will survive over decades and even centuries, not the Foo Fighters (Sorry Chris). Adam ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 21:31:51 -0400 From: The Digital Man To: email_address_removed Subject: Yes/Union and Steve Howe/Turbulence Message-ID: Is it my imagination, or does the ABWH song "Silent Talking" from Union have the exact same riff as a song from Steve Howe's solo album "Turbulence"? ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough email_address_removed "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates email_address_removed /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Spirit of Radio" Saturday 2:00pm-4:00pm 90.7 WCWM-FM http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/tsor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 19:11:52 -0700 From: Eckie To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3843 Message-ID: Adam Cook went off: Oh shut up and play already, people! ~Eckie, the ytsegimp of the day ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 06 May 1998 12:13:49 -0700 From: email_address_removed.au (Paul Dyer) To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: INTRO tape help needed.... Message-ID: I know you said you only wanted instrumental stuff.....but I think to give the guy a great range of DT styles in the one "song" you can't go past Erotomania/Voices/Silent Man...... I did the same thing for a friend recently with the LTE thing.....but he was already a DT fan so I put Blind Guardian on instead! :) Cheers Paul D. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 21:58:10 +0000 From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Zappa and Thal and stuff Message-ID: > > I love that song from White Lion "Wait" solely because the > > guitar solo is brilliant. I am utterly afraid. I haven't heard that song or it's respective solo in about 5 years (I don't own it) and when I saw this, I sang the entire solo mentally from beginning to end. THAT musi be ultimate solo construction... if it's THAT memorable! I may try and learn it tonight by "head" to see how well I really do remember it. > and what's the fetish with speed? stop it- there's more to a woman than her > breasts, for crying out loud. It started out as a joke, but some people apparently didn't see it as a joke... some people really think that speed is of ultimate importance. May the lord have mercy upon their souls. :) > and you can bet my ears pricked up upon reading the whole songwriting legailty > thread. interesting. someone can't wait to be sitting in entertainment law and > copyright/literary property classes in the fall. Wow... are you gonna offer free advice to jammers, as we've provided you with years of useless base entertainment? > From: Ernesto Schnack > First off, for the dude wanting to get Rock Discipline. Just so you > know there is also a book w/ CD that has the same material PLUS a full > transcription of Petrucci's little jam...I'm guessing that's the one > that was spotted for 19.95 at the Berklee bookstore. ARGH! I've seen this. That MUST be it. Dealer cost has to be at least $20 on those vids. > > Romeo and Ron Thal (who introduced me to the > > concept of Dodecaphony when I asked "how did you come up with that > > sick solo line!?"). > > Just out of curiosity, in which solo does he use this, or is it a > common practice of his (something which i wouldnt find odd at all.) Thal uses it ALL over the place. On Hermit, the rhythm in the middle of "Every Time I Shake My Head" is serialized (which is why it's so freaky) as an example, and on Bumblefoot, the Title track is based of a modified 12 tone row (modified in that he repeats some segments of the row to develop a theme). A couple other songs on this disc are like that, but the example you may be more interested in is the soloing stuff. Listen to the solo to Bumblefoot. Try transcribing that. The notes are all over the place as a result of a tone row he developed for that song. Then he learned to shred on it! Unreal. I believe there is some thimble tapping (this isn't a complex new form of tapping that you've never heard of... it's exactly what it's called... tapping with a thimble on his 4th finger) on that first track as well. I'm giving a copy of his new disc to Derek next wednesday (with Ron's permission of course). More important to me than the adherence to the tonal rows he develops, is how he takes the strange sounds of those rows, and develops them into "almost atonal" lines instead of leaving them atonal. This sort of eliminates the possibility that anyone can sound like him without directly ripping him off (unlike how MacAlpine and Tafolla sometimes sounded similar between the first disc of each artist) > Damn, I should just call you Christopher Zappa :) > (For the uninformed, that was Zappa's over-all view towards music) Cool! I am influenced by those influenced by Zappa, but I've never really read moch on him. > > And I conclude on this: Never pluck anything that doesn't feel good. > "If its sounds good to you, it's bitchen, if it sounds bad to you, it > sucks." - FZ Eerie! Go Home and Practice! Chris Ptacek email_address_removed http://www.prognosis.com/madsman ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 22:56:47 -0400 (EDT) From: "Richard A. Rivera" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Speak To Me/ Wasteland Message-ID: I haven't seen the new version of the FAQ, so this might included. If so, forgive the repeat: --- So I'm sitting here, trying to cram an entire semester's worth of Brit-Lit into two days and I came across something very interesting and very DT related. For those of you who have heard DT's song "Speak To Me," you might remember the chorus goes: Tell me what you're thinking Tell me what you're thinking Tell me what you're feeling inside Now, here's a passage from T.S. Eliot's "The Wasteland" that might be of interest. For reference purposes, it can be found in Part 2: A Game Of Chess @ line # 111: "My nerves are bad tonight. Yes, bad. Stay with me. Speak to me. Why do you never speak. Speak. What are you thinking of? What thinking? What? I never know what you are thinking. Think. Coincidence? Hmm..... Richie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:11:50 -0400 From: Joe DeAngelo To: YTSEJAM Subject: guitar flick Message-ID: I was just watching the tube (kinda half-ass watching while browsing the 'net), and there was this movie on HBO. I think it was called "Crossroads", starring Ralph Macchio *chuckle*. He played this classical guitar prodigy attending Juillard (spelling?), who leaves school to go to Mississippi and play the blues. Anyways..... there's this scene where he has this long guitar duel with a rock/metal guitarist who looked awfully like Steve Vai. When the credits finally rolled, sure enough - it was Vai. I just thought that was a cool tidbit. BTW, the movie wasn't too bad (not great either). -- - Joe DeAngelo email_address_removed ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- Heaven must be more than this / When angels waken with a kiss Sacred hearts won't take the pain / But mine will never be the same He stands before the window / His shadow slowly fading from the wall And from an ivory tower hears her call / 'Let the light surround you' - Dream Theater, from "Surrounded" ------------------------------------------------------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 22:58:58 -0400 From: "Alex O'Connell" To: email_address_removed Subject: tickets to Irving Plaza show Message-ID: Hey all, it looks like I am royally screwed!! Both the people on Ticketbastard phone services as well as the online place tell me that the show is sold out, tickets not available, in other words, go back to your hole in Virginia and cry, Alex. So, my question, just for the hell of it and out of desperation, does anyone have any tickets that they aren't going to be using, or friends who don't need tickets, whatever? I'd need three total, but I don't need them all from one person.... If you can help, I thank you very much. I hope you all have a nice day. Howling from frustration, Alex ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:38:35 -0700 From: Jon Parmet To: email_address_removed Subject: (VERY NDTC) Re: And your point is...? Message-ID: > Interesting question... but perhaps they are referring to Dr. Spock! > > And your point is???? Lisa??? Aren't we talking about exactly the same > thing here, my friend? No, actually I was referring to Dr. Benjamin Spock, the famed pediatrician and parenting expert, and author of "Dr. Spock's Baby and Childcare", which was the predominant guide for parents in the 1950's & 60's. Interestingly enough, he was later criticized for corrupting the youth of America and was thought to be partially responsible for producing the "hippie" generation. Incidentally, Dr. Benjamin Spock died March 15, 1998 at the age of 94. How's THAT for getting waaaaaaay off topic? :op Lisa Marie email_address_removed ICQ uin # 1518578 http://home.pacbell.net/ytsegirl -- THOUGHTS - The Spock's Beard Mailing List Homepage http://www.dreamt.org/spocksbeard/ ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 20:55:46 -0700 From: Lisa Marie To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: (VERY NDTC) damn! Message-ID: Gotta remember to change my mail id back after impersonating someone! ;o) Lisa Marie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:58:03 -0400 From: The Digital Man To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: (VERY NDTC) Re: And your point is...? Message-ID: > Date: Tue, 5 May 1998 20:58:43 -0700 (PDT) > From: Jon Parmet > Subject: (VERY NDTC) Re: And your point is...? Lisa, are we having an identity crisis? :) ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough email_address_removed "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates email_address_removed /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ "The Spirit of Radio" Saturday 2:00pm-4:00pm 90.7 WCWM-FM http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/tsor ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 05 May 1998 23:13:33 -0500 From: Jeff Perrot To: Ytsejammers Subject: Attention St. Louis (and surrounding area) jammers! Message-ID: I just wanted to let you know that my band, Broken Glass, is going to be on the KSD local show with Smash tomorrow (Wednesday) night at 6:00 pm. He's gonna play our music, and we'll talk and take calls, and maybe even play on the air! Be sure to tune in to 93.7 FM tomorrow night! If you're not familiar with our music, be sure to check out our web page at http://www.geocities.com/SunsetStrip/Palladium/6190 It's not much, but you will find Real Audio and WAV samples of some of our music. I like to think we're some part progressive, but our demo tape (on the web page) shows a little of everything we do. Of course, we won't be playing progressive stuff on the radio (at least not on that station!). Too bad.... Anyway, thanks for your support!!! Jeff Broken Glass drummer mailto:email_address_removed ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3844 **************************