YTSEJAM Digest 3292 Today's Topics: 1) Re: More of my thoughts * by email_address_removed 2) ****Triumph**** by Eric S P Barker 3) Speed thrills by "Mr. Matt" 4) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3290 by "Richard A. Rivera" 5) About DT in Atlanta... by "Vaughn, Brandon" 6) Re: Drummers that rule by "Charlie Korch" 7) RE The Real Story behind Peruvian Skies by "Brian J. Ketelsen" 8) SLC FW show by "woot" 9) ballroom show by Len Berkoski 10) Topic Guide: * (this means skip it if this bores you!) by "Neil Evans" 11) My last public word on overplaying * by "Neil Evans" 12) re: reLOAD (NDTC) by Lauzon.Gary@ic.gc.ca (Lauzon, Gary: IHAB) 13) RE to someone by email_address_removed 14) Powermad 1997 by Pat Daugherty ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:40:31 +0000 From: email_address_removed To: CLARK ABEL Subject: Re: More of my thoughts * Message-ID: > No, no, no. Yes, I dislike Nirvana primarily because it's too simple, > but that's not related to overplaying or (heh, heh,) "underplaying". A > piece of musice could be extremely complex without having a single beat of > "shredding", or playing fast, or whatever you want to call it, and no one, not > even that dumbass reviewer, would say that the musicians were overplaying. Then we've reached an incommensurability with respect to the term "overplaying," because no one has limitted the term to fast playing or shredding. It's "excess." Too much shred is excess, and thus, overplaying. Too many overdubs, too many harmonies, too many cymbals hit at a time, too much double bass... these are overplaying, and they're hardly objective. As I see it, Nirvana is not playing complex enough music for you, so musically, they're underplaying. A complex song has an upper bound as well, where, beyond that point, some will consider the piece to be overplayed. The more silly the song gets, the more people agree that it's excessive. > is LTL. Ok, granted, Nirvana still probably couldn't pull this song off, but > compared to the rest of IaW, there is very little fast playing in this piece. > Even someone who hated DT for their overplaying would be hard pressed to find > where they overplayed in this one. Anyone who hates DT "for their overplaying" is not being objective in listening to the piece. It's not a matter of condemning each individual song.... it's about calling it as you see it. There's no consuming desire to label a song... I find it better to just listen, and describe what you listen to. > This isn't the best example, but my point is that the term "overplaying" as it > was used by that reviewer, But the reviewer was talking about FII, not I & W. Further, I disagreed with his diagnosis, further demonstrating the subjectivity in the matter. > So it is perfectly valid for me to say that *I* personally dont' like > Nirvana music because it's too simple, but not because they "underplay". > Musical complexity and chops are theoretically unrelated, though in > practice they seem to occur together quite a bit. Overplaying, itself encompasses more than just shred... it extends to "overdoing" parts of a song. And I find that in a well rounded player, complexity and chops go hand in hand. > hesitant to say that, though, and here's why. There is validity to what > Chris said, that some guys do play fast just to show off. And perhaps this is > the logical cutoff point at which we could say that they were overplaying. This is the main point I was trying to make: That for several reasons, it is valid at times to judge for yourself that a piece is in excess. It's a personal decision, though, because some people like to hear 90 notes per second, and some people like a song in 7/8 with 6 chord changes per measure. Be it that the composer is showing off, or just has bad taste (in your opinion) I think it's valid for you to use the term overplaying. I'm hoping that is agreeable to everyone, and this thread can die (And Metallica can live on! I'm getting goosebumps just THINKING about it!) Chris Ptacek email_address_removed http://www.prognosis.com/madsman Go Home and Practice! ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 10:38:07 -0700 From: Eric S P Barker To: "'email_address_removed'" Subject: ****Triumph**** Message-ID: --------- >>Could someone give me some opinions about the band called "Triumph"? Is >>their music progressive?; what kind of music do they play? >>Thank you very much!! WOW I love Triumph. This is the other Three man band. I would call them Progressive. Unfortunately they called it quits in the late 80's. I would suggest: Thunder Seven Allied Forces Surveillance(spelled correctly ?) (I believe this is their last studio project) Progression of Power Sport of Kings (This one is main stream and did receive alot of radio play) I have a couple others but can't remember the titles off hand. Definitely check them out. Eric from Denver -------- begin 600 WINMAIL.DAT M>)\^(@@1`0:0" `$```````!``$``0>0!@`(````Y 0```````#H``$(@ <` M& ```$E032Y-:6-R;W-O9G0@36%I;"Y.;W1E`#$(`0V ! `"`````@`"``$$ MD 8`= $```$````0`````P``, (````+``\.``````(!_P\!````.P`````` M``"!*Q^DOJ,0&9UN`-T!#U0"`````'ET71S M96IA;4!A>"YC;VT``!X``C !````!0```%--5% `````'@`#, $````/```` M>71S96IA;4!A>"YC;VT```,`%0P!`````P#^#P8````>``$P`0```!$````G M>71S96IA;4!A>"YC;VTG``````(!"S !````% ```%--5% Z651314I!34!! M6"Y#3TT``P``.0`````+`$ Z`0```!X`]E\!````#P```'ET`' ``0```! ` M```J*BHJ5')I=6UP:"HJ*BH``@%Q``$````6`````;SYR.0I83<7_V5S$=&W M^ `@>!%.1@``'@`># $````%````4TU44 `````>`!\,`0```!$```!%0F%R M:V5R0$Y"0TDN3F5T``````,`!A#M':0G`P`'$ D"```>``@0`0```&4````M M+2TM+2TM+2U#3U5,1%-/345/3D5'259%34533TU%3U!)3DE/3E-!0D]55%1( M14)!3D1#04Q,140B5%))54U02"(_25-42$5)4DU54TE#4%)/1U)%4U-)5D4_ M.U=(051+24Y$``````(!"1 !````K0(``*D"``#2`P``3%I&=1>Y-6)W``H! M`P'W( *D`^,"`&.": K 1X`"V 6>1R0 M%XQ4#X!N:R#J>0A@(!E@*"- 0DC$@`S ?) `"T0% %Y<8 MH%=/5]T$RP"AS<"O0&\(%H0D)<&-T*^$_ M*2 H_27P8BO0") 981L`)R<=@6\+8# `&+ K@&0:4!X":CTTX2D7A"I7`B ? M@E!OMG<$D#+U< D1'X)+"X#Z9P0@*"<#&0(G(0# +6'[, `)<&$J,!M2-X 8 MH#31GQUP&6$'0"? 'X)R83>#OR"Q.#4NU@^ /9(TD74+4)LGI00@8AK1&Y!N M)P5 WPEP!X &T"?Q&P)T+- ;P-\[<0$@/\$HX1>$1 $0&C%_*\,/< 60(B J M`QK!+FM%UP40'? #4B!#\&XB@1>*7Q;V(/8D!!>$$M$`2A ````#`! 0```` M``,`$1 ``````P" $/____] ````6 "" &``````# ````````1@`` M``!4A0```0````0````X+C ``P`&@ @@!@``````P ```````$8``````84` M```````+``^ "" &``````# email_address_removed,`$( (( 8` M`````, ```````!&`````!"%`````````P`1@ @@!@``````P ```````$8` M````$84````````#`!2 "" &``````# ````````1@`````8A0```````!X` M)( (( 8``````, ```````!&`````#:%```!`````0`````````>`"6 "" & M``````# ````````1@`````WA0```0````$`````````'@`F@ @@!@`````` MP ```````$8`````.(4```$````!`````````!X`/0`!`````0`````````# )``TT_3<``'TY ` end ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:58:12 -0600 From: "Mr. Matt" To: "'email_address_removed'" Subject: Speed thrills Message-ID: Hi, all. This is my first post to the list, so please bear with me. :) On the subject of speed-playing, a classic topic in groups of this nature (i.e. bands/artists of exceptional musicianship): It's always been my belief, for what it's worth, that speed is of great importance in playing guitar. Why? Because if you think about it, I could probably play anything that, say, Impellitteri could, just not at the same tempo, right? :) But, obviously it goes beyond that. Being fast in and of itself isn't what makes a musician a great musician. It's the ability to play (or even not play) the "right" note at the "right" time. I say "right" because, as always, "right" is a subjective term at best. For guitarists, it's generally about phrasing (i.e. what you play and when you play it). My all time favorite guitarist is Greg Howe. Now Greg can play as fast as anybody I know of, but he is an incredible fusion guitarist with a flawless technique. Close examination of his playing (or any good guitarist) will surely show a wide variety of skills at work in any given solo only one of which is usually pretty fast playing. It's another skill, another tool used to get your musical point across, which ultimately says something about you. Just like no two people talk exactly the same way, everyone speaks with a different inflection, a different accent, at a different pitch, etc. etc. It's usually easy to tell which people are trying to say something to you that touches you as opposed to someone who's obviously trying to whack in your face just because he can - that reminds me, is Vinnie Vincent still around? :) In other words, give your money to the people who touch you. ;) That's what I think. Now let's get back to jamming. ---------------------------------------- Matt Gonzales AKA "Mr. Matt" AKA "Genghis" email_address_removed Any philosophical differences can be settled in a Deathmatch at your convenience. ---------------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 12:58:55 -0500 (EST) From: "Richard A. Rivera" To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3290 Message-ID: On Tue, 25 Nov 1997 email_address_removed wrote: > I have a problem. Does anyone know if the hard rock (?) band Danger > Danger still exists? Danger Danger is very much alive and well. Here's their history is a nutshell: after putting out two albums w/ singer Ted Poley (self-titled and "Screw It" respectively) the band went into the studio to record "Cockroach." But soon Ted Poley then left the band to form Bone Machine (who rock, btw). The band recruited Paul Laine into the fold and he ended up resinging the tunes on Cockroach, but the album was shelved and the band ended up being dropped/left by Epic. Guitarist Andy Timmons then decided to pursue solo and session work and keyboardist Kasey Smith left as well (not sure if he played on "Cockroach" or not) In any case, drummer Steve West, bassist Bruno Ravel and Paul Laine continued on using the Danger Danger name as a trio and independently released "Dawn," on which Ravel played both the bass and guitar tracks. That album, IMHO, blows big tim except for two or three songs. It was a definite departure from the pop-metal sound D2 usually put out. Very 90s and very grunge. The band has now put out "Four The Hard Way" which boasts a return to pop-metal, as well as four tracks from Cockroach. Keyboadist Kasey Smith is back and I'm not sure if Timmons will return in a touring capacity, but I hope so. So the album is almost like a reunion of the original members except for the vocals. I've only heard one song so far ("Captain") and it easily blows away anything on "Dawn." As far as I know, it is only available through Perris Records. Once I get some $$$ it will be the first thing I buy. Richie P.S. I would have sent this privately, but I had to break up all the Reload talk. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:59:39 -0600 From: "Vaughn, Brandon" To: email_address_removed Subject: About DT in Atlanta... Message-ID: <41303F74D60DD111B56500609778A79C076655@chipola.cc.fl.us> I called up the Masquerade in Atlanta, and they told me the tickets for DT will go on sale Saturday. Not sure what time. And she didn't know how much they would be. Now, just have to see if I'll be able to go or not. Brandon Vaughn vaughnb@chipola.cc.fl.us ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 13:03:54 -0400 From: "Charlie Korch" To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Drummers that rule Message-ID: >>When did Roy Haynes play with Chick Corea, I know Gary Novak took over from Dave Weckl, but I've not heard of this other guy.<< Roy Haynes is one of the greatest old school drummers around. He has been playing for a lot longer than most of us have been around. He is in the same league as Elvin Jones, Art Blakey, etc. If you haven't heard him yet, please do so, you shouldn't regret it. Also, I believe that you are refering to Chick's Electrik Band. I don't think that the Electrik Band is around anymore. The project that Roy is now playing in, is with Chick, and possibly Dave Holland on Bass. I could be mistaken. Happy Drumming, Charlie ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:43:59 -0700 From: "Brian J. Ketelsen" To: Subject: RE The Real Story behind Peruvian Skies Message-ID: <001201bcf9d2$180f3730$message_id_removed> OK, not everybody knew that, but thanks, we do now :-) I don't know how many times I've searched the FAQ's, done full text searches of all the Jams trying to find any reference to the story. HUMPH. FWIW PS is my fav song on FII. Brian K. >>> Everybody knows the story behind Peruvian Skies about a girl who is abused by her father. >> Big SNIP<< How's that for Poor Vanessa ! Marcelo Martinelli Monterrey , Mexico <<< ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 11:50:22 -0700 From: "woot" To: Subject: SLC FW show Message-ID: <01bcf9d2$fbdacc40$552746cf@sir> well the fates show in Utah that i've been so stoked about going to for t= he last month is 21+ so it looks like I'm too immature to go. It's at the Ichabob. anyone know how strict they are about carding people? I look wel= l over 21 (if i do say so myself) so i figure i might have a chance, but i don't want to drive 8 hours in one night for a small shot at getting in. private email please. It rolls down stairs It comes not in pairs Runs over your neighbor's foot. It's great for a snack And fits on your back It's woot! woot! woot! woot=99 from Blammo!=AE ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:15:10 -0500 From: Len Berkoski To: email_address_removed Subject: ballroom show Message-ID: Does anybody have a song list of the unreleased tracks that were being played before the DC show? They sounded awesome, and I'm still questioning why some of those tracks were cut before several on the new album. Thanks, Len B **************************************************************************** Leonard Berkoski III Allied Signal, Scientific Instruments System Engineer Hubble Space Telescope Project Work Number: (301) 286-6949 Fax Number: (301) 286-1726 **************************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 97 10:04:33 -0800 From: "Neil Evans" To: email_address_removed Subject: Topic Guide: * (this means skip it if this bores you!) Message-ID: Chris P: >But what aspects are we talking about? The complexity of the music? A whole lot of subjective aspects. Even complexity is somewhat subjective - it depends on your frame of reference. Someone who practices harmony and voice leading exercises everday would probably not find the chord changes to Erotomania very complex (but might be perplexed by a simple jazz progression). Someone who plays strictly 12-bar blues probably would. >it's not about fast or slow. It's about when a part starts to have a negative impact on a song. Of course that's subjective. Then we agree :). My original point was that, first and foremost, the concept of "song" should not be written in stone. Given that, which aspects of a song are positive and which negative are too subjective for people to agree on, and this includes whether a part is "overplayed." There will probably be parts which MORE people think are "overplayed" than not, and this may be the type of scenario you are referring to (like AnnaMania). But I feel that this does not necessarily mean it IS overplayed, and that in this subjective realm the concept of "overplayed" becomes nearly meaningless. >But it's a valid discussion point Hmm, yes I guess it is. We have proven that. Maybe my gripe is that it is such a subjective discussion point that it doesn't belong in a magazine review. In Kuba's objective robot-world, it would be different. :) >I can clock 16ths at 200 BPM I assume you mean in a straight alternate-picked exercise. Out of curosity, are you playing 3 notes per string or 4? Scalar (diatonic) or strictly pattern-based? Technique is such a varied, elusive thing. :) >It's up to the musician to try to get the music to flow right (whether that means smooth, or purposely choppy... or choppily smooth, like T-Ride) and it's the listener's job to decide if he or she did a good jub of it Yes. Well said. That, of course, is part of the beauty of DT. Most people don't know the "Surrounded" verses are in odd meter, because they just sound so "right". I love that. cheers, -Neil. ------------------------------ Date: 25 Nov 97 10:39:03 -0800 From: "Neil Evans" To: email_address_removed Subject: My last public word on overplaying * Message-ID: >>I think it is rare that someone thinks "I'm going to >> play really fast on this record to try to impress people with my playing". > You MUST have missed out on the 80's! Well, let's look at it another way. Everyone who has put in the time and sweat to be a fast player did so for a reason. They LIKE to play fast. They like the way it sounds, the rush, the way it feels, etc. While I admit there was a very "competitive" atmosphere to guitar playing in the 80s, I doubt these guitarists recorded their fast parts, decided they HATED the way it sounded, then made a conscious decision to leave it on the record anyway only to try to impress people. More likely they liked the way it sounded and maybe said "hey, all those practicing guitarists out there will like it too because it's difficult to play." It's not so much a huge compromise as it is a tendency to put more difficult passages on record for those who like to hear it. My bottom line is that if the person who wrote and recorded the part likes the way it sounds, leave it on there! >the problem is that the playing begins to sound like a technical exercise, and not like music. Hence, the challenge of the well-versed musician is to write interesting music utilizing his/her technique. Have you heard the Spastic Ink disc? Jarzombek wrote a song uzing just two notes - C and C#. I view the result of this work as both a technical exercise in composition and a piece of music (being so harmonically limited, you can imagine it is rhythmically intense). I can appreciate it as both. Anyway, almost every fast lick is the result of a technical exercise - you've practiced something repeatedly enough to be able to play it that fast. I don't think you could visualize a complex guitar pattern in your head and play it in 16ths at 200 BPM unless you had practiced it a lot first! >"Nobody who CAN play fast ever said 'DUDE! SPEED SUCKS!'" Amen. >There is nothing worse than a big build up that leads to a "nothing" solo. Well, it all depends what I'm listening for. I think Spock's Beard is one of the best bands I've heard in a while, but the guitarist is not a very good soloist. The music holds my attention - it's fantastic. When I want chops I'll put the new Kotzen/Howe disc in :). >Joe Stump was quoted by a friend as saying "My new album will make Cacophony look like Kindergarten." Yeah, but if the guy's got a shred of integrity he'll be trying to write interesting music. And if it's interesting, I'll dig it. :) The DT guys have said MetII will be "insane", "sick", etc. I won't accuse them of just doing it to show off. It's a judgement of the music after it's written. >Circular arguments are rarely logically sound. Of course. My point was that we need to separate "mood of a song" from "composer's intended mood". "Mood of a song" derives directly from the song itself, which means all parts of it fit the mood by definition. >If a songwriter has something great going on, and then adds something that you perceive as ridiculously out of place, I think it's valid for you to say he overplayed. Here's the crux of the debate. I would just say he played something that didn't appeal to me. "Over"playing to me implies that there is too much of something - but too much of what? Too many notes per second? Too much vibrato? Too many distorted pick slides down the neck :)? I prefer to just say "that part does not appeal to me" instead of saying there is too much of something. This has been a great discussion, and I will now move further responses into private email for the benefit of the Ytse and the Jam. cheers, -Neil. ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:48:39 -0500 From: Lauzon.Gary@ic.gc.ca (Lauzon, Gary: IHAB) To: email_address_removed ('DT') Subject: re: reLOAD (NDTC) Message-ID: <1997Nov25.140547.1255.1398994@msmail.ic.gc.ca> >Well, I bought reLOAD last night and I have to say YES! this album ROCKS! I >absolutely hated everything about LOAD, but reLOAD rocks. This album is a >return to the feel of The Black Album. I really like almost every track >off of this album..for once since The Black Album, I will recommend this to >someone to purchase. This isn't a disappoint, though less heavy, it is >more talented than most of Metallica's releases. Thank you.. and I thought I was the only one with this opinion! To all of you out there who don't like load.. but dig the black album.. buy this album.. you shouldn't be dissapointed but like it says above... less heavy! XaNaDu ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 14:41:44 -0500 (EST) From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: RE to someone Message-ID: Chris wrote: << To: Dream Theater Mailing List Subject: Powermad 1997 Message-ID: This show is happening this upcoming weekend. Hit the Powermad link at: http://websnet.com/global/ for directions/location/band list. I got a call from the guy running it and he comfirmed that they got my check and are leaving a pass for me at the door. He gave me a confirmation number. So if you sent in a check, call them and make sure you get confirmation number. Some other details. It runs noon until 2am all 3 days (Fri, Sat, Sun-Nov 28-30). On Friday though, some local _HEAVY_ bands will start at noon or so but the real show starts sometime from 4-6 pm on Friday. It is an all ages show. There will be a bar and catered food. And you get a free 2cd set with songs from a bunch of the bands. So what other jammers beside Madden and the guys in Division (who are playing Friday) and myself are going to this? I'll be there all 3 days although not the whole time afterall it is a holiday weekend and when you are married you are forced to spend time with both families... I'll probably wear a DT shirt every day (different ones though). The cost of this event is $30 for all 3 days or $15 a day. |-------------------------------------------------------------------| | Pat Daugherty email_address_removed | |===================================================================| | Washington Redskins 6-5-1 | | Upon the murder scene of a NY Yankee fan at Camden Yards: | | "I didn't know that was illegal in Baltimore"-Munch on Homicide | |-------------------------------------------------------------------| ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3292 **************************