YTSEJAM Digest 3287 Today's Topics: 1) Re: More on overplaying.. by "Neil Evans" 2) DC Show Tech Errors by Andrew Rittner 3) simple? / goosebumps by "Tedesco, Matthew" 4) DT Chills by Jeremy Kube 5) subtle complexity by "Neil Evans" 6) allow me to jump in... by "Tedesco, Matthew" 7) UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Reviews by email_address_removed.au 8) Atlanta shows by Eric Desobe 9) DC show at the Bawlroom by Kevin Madden 10) Overplaying - DT = Nirvana? by "Neil Evans" 11) Fates Tour Date. by Eric S P Barker 12) Message *bounced* by "O/T-Track+ 2.66b" <"O/T-Track+=202.66b"@f854.n292.z2.fidonet.org> 13) Re: Maturity... by Brian Hansen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: 24 Nov 97 12:31:48 -0800 From: "Neil Evans" To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: More on overplaying.. Message-ID: Pat writes: >If you have the ability to play a more complex part and that is what you think should go there, why simplify it? I agree completely. >I think "overplaying", particularly as it was used in the article, means more "difficult to listen to". Yes, but in addition people who judge music as "overplaying" often are including the negative connotation of "showing off." In my experience, that is how it has happened. See my previous post for my opinions on "overplaying" and whether it is truly possible. :) cheers, -Neil. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 97 15:20:58 EST From: Andrew Rittner To: email_address_removed Subject: DC Show Tech Errors Message-ID: *** The bad stuff: The sound. The Cap Ballroom pretty much sounds like crap anyway, but I think the soundman was asleep for most of the set - the mix was beyond awful for most of LiTS, and went screwy again at several spots during the set. Somehow, I don't think the band was too pleased either - they seemed to be having problems with the monitor mix. They came out kinda flat - the set didn't really get going until about "Scarred". JP's tech was nowhere to be seen when he broke a string during a solo - I'm zeroing on which song that was - and he had to go back behind the amps to get another guitar. Derek's keys were absent from the mix at times, and he lost power to his side of the stage for about a minute - during "Scarred", if I remember correctly - and could do nothing but sit there looking pissed. I think it may be time for the band to review the roadie situation - they don't seem to be doing to good of job. The band *** I can't vouch for the roadies personally, since I wasn't there. They might have had an off night I suppose. However, one of the tough things about touring small clubs like DT is doing is that they have a different set-up in each place they go to. I saw them twice on this tour, and in each place, they had a different sound board. Some of the stuff is the same, mostly the rack equiptment (meaning the sound guy's rack, not the musicians' racks. That stays the same, of course), but the lights, and often the sound equiptment, speakers, etc, is whatever the house has available. And if the house equiptment sucks, then the sound, of course, sucks. The sound tech was grumbling the entire time in Providence about the board (and the drunks putting their drinks on said board). It had buttons missing, and looked kind of messy. I asked him if it was DT's or not, and he mumbled that it was a house board. As a audio engineer type person (I'm actually about to graduate with a degree in it) I can say that DT's sound guy (the big guy with the long grey hair) REALLY knows what he's doing. He has kind of a surly attitude if you talk to him, but he's actually really cool. And being as far into the tour as they were, I doubt he'd start screwing up now. It's entirely possible that most or all of the problems described were caused by the crew's unfamiliarity with the house they were playing in. For example, the Providence show was nearly flawless, but the show at Toad's the next weekend was beseiged by tech errors. Like fires and stuff. It seems unlikely that the crew would actually get stupider as they went into the tour, unless DT is using regional crews, or worse, house crews (ewww...) Anyway, this isn't any sort of backlash, I just thought I'd speak up for my bros in backstage-land. It's a really rough job, especially when things start to get crazy. But that's also why it's so much fun! Thanks for listening, again. Andy Rittner email_address_removed http://www.connix.com/~rittner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:43:00 -0500 From: "Tedesco, Matthew" To: email_address_removed Subject: simple? / goosebumps Message-ID: hello all, from luke: >However it took one of DT?s simplest pieces of music from one of their >simplest songs - CIAW, right at 3:46 when that heavy, eerie, synth lead >instrumental section kicks in - to get me hooked. That small, dynamic simplest songs? i don't know about that... it just doesn't seem right, using the term "simple" to describe dt. 'course, i'm sure you were using it relatively, but still... ok, these dt goosebump moments. from falling into infinity, one has to be in hell's kitchen, at the beginning, when petrucci comes in with that wah-ish "bwaaah" before the drums kick in. very nice. and when the vocals first come in in new millennium, i'd say that counts too. take away my pain gets me, particularly with the context, even though kevin james isn't happy with it. from awake, the first chorus in lifting shadows come to mind, as does the sample something like "this is his toughest challenge yet, he's going to have to face it" in space dye vest--given the context, and what it meant in kevin's life. and in voices, the climactic "maybe i'm just cassandra..." section always does it. from images and words, when the band first kicks in altogether in surrounded. the whole "dust fills my eyes" verse of pull me under. intro to glass moon. from dream and day, whenever charlie stops singing. =) no actually, i really think his voice is adequate, and at times works well. seriously, only chills i get are at the beginning of ytsejam, just before the main riff begins. such a feeling of anticipation. thinking about it, actually, dream and day really is the only album without goosebump moments. maybe it's the production, maybe it's just that the music is... i dunno... immature? =) oof! actually, i'm only partly kidding. i mean, as over the top as that album is with instrumental virtuosity, maybe it's too over-the-top... not sure. --MATt ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:47:00 -0500 From: Jeremy Kube To: email_address_removed Subject: DT Chills Message-ID: My chills are: Hearing Surrounded. Hearing Eve Hearing Scarred...Live for the first time Hearing KJ hit those incredibly high notes in Lie. All of Learning to Live ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 97 12:51:57 -0800 From: "Neil Evans" To: email_address_removed Subject: subtle complexity Message-ID: Isaac made an interesting comment: >As a guitarist I have always found JP's rhytm guitar parts as difficult as his solos. And FII is loaded with strong rhythm playing. This makes me think of something I noticed about FII. There is a lot of subtle, "hidden" complexity in the album. The first thing that springs to mind is "New Millenium." At first, the song doesn't kick your ass the way Metropolis would, but if you listen carefully there is A LOT of cool stuff going on "underneath." I'm not even going to touch the topic of maturity, but I'll go on record as saying the I&W is my favorite album ever and FII is a fantastic album which time will place in its spot in my DT "pecking order." cheers, -Neil. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:17:00 -0500 From: "Tedesco, Matthew" To: email_address_removed Subject: allow me to jump in... Message-ID: hello all, from neil: >My point is this - If a person >records a song - let's say it's an instrumental shrapnel disc filled with >crazy soloing - then there is a reason that person played the way they did on >record. the point of this eludes me. i don't believe the question is rationality--the question isn't whether a person writes a song with a reason or not, the issue seems to be whether that reason was a good one. lots of bad songs can come together because the reasoning behind writing it or its parts are bad, i would think. >I think it is rare that someone thinks "I'm going to >play really fast on this record to try to impress people with my playing". i am really not too sure about this. there's no way to prove this either way, of course, but i would be willing to say that there are probably quite a few musicans who do get so caught up in the technical aspects of their work, the "impressive" parts, that they do lose touch with the emotional impact of the song. while they may not have to consciously think, "boy will this impress them!," they would be equally guilty of losing touch with the song merely by losing the emotional impact in technical prowess. >You'll notice, >however, that no guitarist is ever accused of overusing one aspect of their >ability: the ability to play slowly. I could argue (with the same dubious >effectiveness) that most musicians out there are constantly "Underplaying", be >it the result of a lack of talent or of a conscious desire. although the phrasing rarely matches what you describe, i do think that often, when we hear bands like bush and oasis and are repulsed, this is the thought in mind. that is, what i am listening too is severly limited, and i do not like it because the musicians either cannot move beyond underplaying, or choose not too. >If we think of a song as a fast moving, exciting, non-repeating piece of music >that constantly tugs at the ear, with disparate parts vying for your >attention, then this fast playing would perfectly serve "the song" and slow >playing would detract from it (hence "underplaying"). It is merely the notion >of what a "song" should be that elicits the charge of "overplaying." It is my >point that we should think about expanding on what we believe to be a "song". to me, this is almost like the "nature/nurture" issue in psychology. do we expect a song to be a "song" simply because it's what we're used to, or did the notion of "song" arise and persist because it is what naturally appeals to us? this is another point that can't be proven decisively, but if it is the former, then we are right to push the boundaries of "song," while if it is the latter, then our efforts are unnatural and in vain. >I would say no. There is a reason somebody played that blazing riff in the >first place - caught up in the music, an intense feeling or sensation came >over this person, whatever. The same reason is why it is appropriate in the >song. again, though, simply because there is a reason does not make that reason good. i may be struck for many different reasons to write a certain part of a song, only to have it realized afterwards that the part is horrible. that is the songwriting process, after all. consider how kevin james feels about take away my pain--they had a reason for him to sing it emotionally detached, but in retrospect, he now realizes that he shouldn't have followed that reason. it was bad reasoning. that "blazing riff" you speak of could be bad reasoning as well. this is turning into a very interesting discussion... --MATt ------------------------------ Date: Tue, 25 Nov 1997 08:32:24 +1000 From: email_address_removed.au To: email_address_removed Subject: UNCLASSIFIED:-Re: Reviews Message-ID: >Rhapsody - Legendary Tales > Imagine mixing Blind Guardian, Gamma Ray, Symphony X >and Stratovarius - and then throwing away all the good bits: that's >Rhapsody. Add a bit of Manowar and Angra too, you get the BEST bits of all these bands and you have Rhapsody. >Everything is very predictable - time for a solo, yes, >here it comes, wank, wank, wank, now a bit of thrash/power stuff, >castrato wailing, add the Vivaldi bits lads, nearly forgot the >obligatory keyboard/guitar duelling (wank, wank, wank), bring on >the vocal harmonies, catch your breath while the orchestral keys >are playing before building up to the biggest wankfest since >Pamela Anderson got her jugs out in Baywatch. Wankfest ? You've surely got to be joking ? It is the exact opposite for me, one of the things I like about Rahpasody is that you don't know what will come next. >I even forced >myself to listen to the whole balls-aching procedure a second time >just to see if it was really as bad as I thought - it was. For quite >some time I've been looking for something to stand my coffee cup >on at work, and this CD will make an excellent saucer. There are >obviously some people with technical ability on this album, but the >music is about as warm as a witch's tit in winter. I even prefer >Charlie Dominici to this singer, and that's saying a lot. 2/10. In my book the allbum is as close to perfection as were gonna get. 9.5/10 in my book, there is room for improvement, the next album will be a killer. It's seems that the review was based almost entirely on just one listen, how many times has your opinion changed after repeated hearing of an album ? Anyway IMNSFHO the album is brilliant, Neil your taste is in your ass mate :) Happy listening :) graham ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 16:30:17 -0500 (EST) From: Eric Desobe To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Atlanta shows Message-ID: Anyone want to meet before or after the Atlanta show? Let me know. -Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:41:27 -0500 From: Kevin Madden To: email_address_removed Subject: DC show at the Bawlroom Message-ID: And you thought I wasn't going to add in my few coins? Ha. The trip starts at about 6:30pm when Pat Daugherty, his wife, and his boozehound..er, I mean, driver pick up me up at a safe parking lot where I can leave my car for the night. Then it's onto 295 and DC, ho! We have no problem finding the "club" at all. Homes I offers to serve as our personal valet. Eh, no. Loooong line out front. I am thanking all ye gods that it isn't too cold. We wait. Out of the cold comes a scream, "Red Wings suck." Who could be such a moron as to yell that? Syrinx, I believe ;-) Still sore about the Flyers, I guess. I was thinking, "hey, someone is talking to ME!" We wait. A few cops drive by to give the illusion of safety in Crack-ville. Homes II staggers up, muttering to himself. The line goes. The guy at the door asks if "we plan on drinking." I guess so...if you insist. We go in. DT swag looks pretty low budget. My cash remains in my pocket. Faith No More blasts from the speakers. We walk by the bar, Merlo yells something, I wave, and keep going so I don't get lost. We station ourselves to the left of the soundboard. Drinks are consumed in large quantities by our driver. Great. We run into the dude running Power Mad. He admits he was stupid naming the festival that. He "forgot" about the band by the same name. *shrug* Some jammer who claims to be a lurker says something to Pat. "Who the fuck are you?" - the question unspoken ;-) Big Wreck comes on. Merlo and Sryinx are no where to be found (I see why if he was up front). Boy are BW derivitive. They had a bad attitude, too. As per normal, trees begin to sprout up in front of my sight lines. Tall pregnant chick, believe it or not. Stylish, happening dudes. Damnit, I left my cowboys boots and vest at home. It's Howard Stern! Gene Simmons, short and fat, crowds in behind. Oh, look, it's Mike from Division, with new bassist in tow. Our driver continues to pound. DT comes on. Sounds like crap. Not their fault. Jam sections rule. Labrie's shirt makes me laugh. Show over. Lounge version comes on. Ha ha. We leave. Homes III asks for an offering to the gods of unburglarized cars. Fuck him. He pile into the car. "I can drive," says Mr. Driver. Uh-huh. We tempt fate and make it home. I turn on Sportscenter to see that Gus Frerotte is a bigger idiot than I ever dreamed. End of story. CD of the Day - Kamelot - Eternity Green Bay Packers - The Quest to Repeat - Detroit Red Wings 9-3 15-6-4 at Vikings vs Ottawa Kevin ------------------------------ Date: 24 Nov 97 13:48:53 -0800 From: "Neil Evans" To: email_address_removed Subject: Overplaying - DT = Nirvana? Message-ID: Chris P: >To say that you don't believe in overplaying or musical maturity, you'd have to be willing to say that every DT piece is equal, and that every Nirvana piece is equal to any DT piece. Not at all. You would have to be willing to say that neither the DT piece nor the Nirvana piece contains any "overplaying" or "underplaying." They simply contain "playing." You can still exercise a judgement concerning how much you enjoy the "playing", and in the Nirvana case I'd say "Not at all." :) cheers, -Neil. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 15:20:43 -0700 From: Eric S P Barker To: "'email_address_removed'" Subject: Fates Tour Date. Message-ID: ---------------------------- All hello, Yes it looks like Fates Warning will be in Colorado Springs on Dec. 3, at Pure Energy. Later, Eric from Denver ---------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 97 22:18:34 +0100 From: "O/T-Track+ 2.66b" <"O/T-Track+=202.66b"@f854.n292.z2.fidonet.org> To: email_address_removed Subject: Message *bounced* Message-ID: *************************************************************************** *** WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING -- WARNING *************************************************************************** * * The e-mail-message appended below was bounced from the * fidonet.org-domain because an occurence was detected which * classifies it as unfit for fidonet-routing. * * If you have reason to believe your message was removed without due * reason then kindly inform 'email_address_removed'. * * Commercial-mail, messages from listservers, mailing-lists, religious * and other harassment will by definition not be distributed. * * If your country of residence is the USA then the following paragraph may * apply to you: * * - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - - * By US Code Title 47, Sec. 227(a)(2)(B), a computer/modem * /printer meets the definition of a telephone fax/machine. * By Sec. 227(b)(1)(C), it is unlawful to send any unsolicited * materials to such equipment. * * By Sec.227(b)(3)(C), a violation of the aforementioned * section is punishable by action to recover actual monetary * loss, or $500, whichever is greater, for each violation. * * Violations will be reported to 'abuse@postoffice.us'. *************************************************************************** To: danajlovski peco @2:383/100 Subj.: [part 3] YTSEJAM digest 3272 Dated: 22 Nov 97 00:46:59 [processed here: 22 Nov 97 22:18:34] @INTL 2:383/100 2:292/875 @MSGID: short-eared.owlnet.rice.edu bf8a9bd8 @REPLYADDR: email_address_removed @REPLYTO: 2:292/875@fidonet UUCP @CHRS: LATIN-1 2 @RFC-Received: (from fnet@localhost) by infomag.infomag.iguana.be (8.6.12/8.6.10) id OAA30029 for email_address_removed; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 14:34:30 +0100 @RFC-Received: from thor.ax.com (thor.ax.com [199.184.188.7]) by medelec.uia.ac.be (8.8.8/8.8.8) with ESMTP id CAA13073 for ; Sat, 22 Nov 1997 02:14:32 +0100 @RFC-Received: from thor (localhost [127.0.0.1]) by thor.ax.com (8.8.5/1.4/8.7.3/1.1) with SMTP id PAA08718; Fri, 21 Nov 1997 15:46:59 -0800 (PST) @RFC-Message-ID: @RFC-Errors-To: email_address_removed @RFC-Originator: email_address_removed @RFC-Sender: email_address_removed @RFC-Precedence: bulk @RFC-X-Listprocessor-Version: 6.0c -- ListProcessor by Anastasios Kotsikonas @RFC-X-Comment: Dream Theater List To: Multiple recipients of list ]From: email_address_removed * Continuation 2 of a split message * Hanson, I'm sure that Hanson fans would feel that this would represent a "progression" from what they play now. 2) As was pointed out at great length a couple of posts ago, "progressive" music does not at all imply change; rather it is a genre of music with a specific set of characteristics. Therefore, even if we could objectively define a "progression", the question of whether a given band is "progressive" would still be unanswered. I do think you have a point, as each of us has his own subjective definition of what a "progression" represents and therefore prefers bands that evolve in a certain direction. This is much too subjective to hang a definition of "progressive" music on, however. Mark McEuen email_address_removed ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3272 ************************** @Via ifmail 2:292/875@fidonet, Sat Nov 22 1997 at 02:14 (2.10-tx8.3) @Via ifmail 2:292/862@fidonet, Sat Nov 22 1997 at 14:34 (2.10-tx8.3) @Via D'Bridge 1.58 2:292/854 11/22 22:03 ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 24 Nov 1997 14:48:38 -0800 From: Brian Hansen To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Maturity... Message-ID: >Just like to once again throw my 2=A2 worth in. This time on the topic of >DT's maturity and all the talk of 'wank-fests' etc.. >on I&W and AWAKE, it=92s the moods created by the music as a complete >product. Right now, APSOG is getting more time in my CD player than FII, >mostly because APSOG (yes, yes, IMHO of course) comes closer to >capturing the feelings and emotions similar to those evoked by AWAKE. >Luke. Luke, I tend to agree. I have been listening to FII since the day it came out, it's good, but it still hasn't "clicked" for me. On Awake and I&W, the keys add a mood, and often an additional theme to the songs. On FII, more often it seems the keys are just another instrument playing along with the song. Kind of like a second guitar player trading leads with JP. There's a dimension of the music that is missing. It's like the maximum number of concurrent themes has dropped from four to three. On APSOG, the keys have added a sweeping, majestic sound that Fates didn't have before. ;-) I have been into Fates since No Exit was released, but I think that APSOG is now my favorite Fates disc.=20 IMHO, BH ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3287 **************************