YTSEJAM Digest 3276 Today's Topics: 1) Re: Progression by email_address_removed 2) re: overplaying by Pat Sullivan 3) Tradewinds Last Night by Dan 4) re: maturity by Pat Sullivan 5) Re: Styx = DT? by "Brian P. Kelley" 6) songs...a random musical fact by Deedlit 7) INXS lead singer found dead by "Buck Stodgers" 8) Washington Post Reviews by Kevin Madden 9) Australian DT article. by Chris Groves 10) Oh boy, not another! by Jon Kretschmer 11) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3272 by Lars Hellsten 12) Maturity and progression by CLARK ABEL 13) drain drummer by imajica@algonet.se (Niklas Thorpenberg) 14) Re: Musical Maturity (Beta 1.0) by email_address_removed (Ernesto Schnack) 15) Re: That review, the hierarchy, response by Mark Jeffrey McEuen ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:20:44 -0500 (EST) From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Progression Message-ID: <971122092043_-1305098864@mrin79> I, too think that Faith No More is a progressive rock band. For me, the definition of "progressive rock" is rock that tries to stretch the boundaries of the genre, sometimes going beyond those boundaries. I agree with Matt Tedesco that people who change their style are not necessarily progressive. If that was the definition, virtually any band besides ones who haven't changed their style since their inception would be considered progressive. Bush would be considered progressive by that definition, because they just released a techno-crap single, whereas their usual style is copyist "alternative." However, Faith No More definitely stretches the bounds of the rock genre and will continue doing so as long as they're around. It's the same with Mr. Bungle, as far as I'm concerned. They stretch the bounds of the genre even FURTHER than FNM, in my opinion. Maybe there's a difference between "prog" and "progressive". To me, that difference is that "prog" is the set style which many of you here on the Jam and elsewhere on the Internet (long songs, time signature changes, polyrhythmics), and "progressive" is anything that stretches the bounds of the genre, as stated above. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 09:45:25 -0500 From: Pat Sullivan To: email_address_removed Subject: re: overplaying Message-ID: >I'd love to hear people's comments, especially in relation to DT music or >"prog" in general. I hate the use of the word "overplaying" in relation to music, it says to me that the speaker thinks that there is a certain level of proficiency a musician should attain, and nothing more. If you have the ability to play a more complex part and that is what you think should go there, why simplify it? I think "overplaying", particularly as it was used in the article, means more "difficult to listen to". He states as much at the end of the review when talking about how tough FII is to listen to at times. Some people (prog fans, for example) want music that challenges them and makes them look at music differently. Other people (pop fans, for example) want music that has concepts and ideas that are easier to wrap their minds around. That's why the rift between those two musical factions exists: pop music is generally to simplistic to keep the prog fan's attention, and prog music is generally too complex for the pop fan to follow. ____http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html IRC: DDictator Now Playing: Nothing - Work sucks. :) _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:17:15 -0500 (EST) From: Dan To: email_address_removed Subject: Tradewinds Last Night Message-ID: What a show last night at the Tradewinds...did anyone else make it. Pouring rain and all!!! I think the highlight of the show was Portnoy destroying one of his crash cymbals then busting on of the members of the road crews ass for not fixing it right away. That was funny! Well it was a great show. LaBrie was right on the money and the Chapman Stick was cool as shit. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:12:44 -0500 From: Pat Sullivan To: email_address_removed Subject: re: maturity Message-ID: >I never did my FII "review",but now that I've had it for a couple months, I can say with a >fair degree of confidence that this album is a bitter disapointment for me. My reaction to posts like this is: I wish there was a way that I could let people who don't like FII (but want to) listen to it with my ears. If you could hear it the way I do.....I find it so unfortunate that everyone doesn't love this album as much as I do. To each his own... ----- ____http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html IRC: DDictator Now Playing: Nothing - Work sucks. :) _________________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 11:28:58 -0500 From: "Brian P. Kelley" To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Styx = DT? Message-ID: Matt Mommaerts wrote: >Well, I played some DT for my sister last night... > >she's 32 and is pretty familiar with some 80's music...but now mostly likes >the top 40 women singer type... but she knows some styx....and I played >parts of tracks from FII and she said it was a LOT like Styx to her. That's interesting! I never thought about FII sounding like Styx, but now that you mention it... I am picturing Dennis DeYoung singing on HY or James Young (JY for you closet Styx-heads out there ;) singing on LitS with his growling voice, like on "Snowblind". Or how about Tommy Shaw on YNM? Alright, I'm getting out there :) since at first glance, no one would DARE compare Styx to DT. DeYoung is a great singer and phenomenal keyboardist and I wouldn't doubt if even Kevin Moore or DS for that matter were influenced by him in some way. Not to sound silly, but doesn't JLB's voice range/style remind you a little of DeYoung's? Don't flame me, just some thoughts... >Well, I do have to admit... that the beginning of TOT reminds me of >something from Cornerstone... I dunno... Actually I think it sounds more like Rush's "Xanadu" especially with the wood blocks. Same with the ending of Erotomania. DT are obviously influenced by Rush in many ways. As far as with Styx, maybe in the respect of vocals and keyboards. Other than that, I can't see a direct relation. Plus, JP would ***shred*** JY or TS under the table ANY DAY!!! :) Take the time, Brian (closet Styx-head, sort of) ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:40:41 -0500 From: Deedlit To: email_address_removed Subject: songs...a random musical fact Message-ID: >Now lets look at 'serious' music. You know, Bach, Mozart, Beethoven, etc.. >They didnt write 'songs', but there were different types of compositions >they used (and use), i.e. symphonies, concertos, tone poems, etc.. They had >a certain structure, but generally they have more of stream-of-conciousness >flow to them. If a theme is repeated, it is usually done in a different >way. And there's a lot more interaction between instruments, and they >often trade the melodies between them, etc.. Uhm, actually, a bit of historical information: Mozart and Beethoven also wrote SONGS. They were not as short as the average pop song today, but they were popular songs in their time. Songs involved a singer and accompaniment, and were most usually performed at private galas and such. While, obviously, the songs didn't comprise a majority of these composers' compositions, they still existed. :) This isn't a flame, just a random music fact hehe. I don't know any SPECIFIC songs, only that I have heard them over the 10 odd years I have been listening to Classical music, and I know I've heard several by Mozart and Beethoven. Erica Bonomi, email_address_removed ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ Deedlit or Deedo on IRC vacation: email_address_removed ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ http://www.skidmore.edu/~ebonomi/ ~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~ ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:39:14 -0500 From: "Buck Stodgers" To: Subject: INXS lead singer found dead Message-ID: Hello, For those of you who might care (I know I do), Michael Hutchence of INXS was found dead today in his hotel room in Australia. It was apparently a suicide. I never got to see these guys, and they're one of my favorite bands. My advice, get to any DT show you can. You never know how much time you have to see them. And please do not take this as some opportunity to bash a band. He's not a martyr, just a talent I appreciated and will miss. ______________________________________________________________ "Luminous beings are we, not this crude matter..." -Yoda, the Jedi Master ______________________________________________________________ Andrew Forcier a.k.a. Buck Stodgers Maintainer of the List of Ytse-Traders of Repute; To submit names or request a copy, mailto:email_address_removed To view the list: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/ytselist.txt -------------------------------------------------------------- --List Manager-- The Peppermint Tribe, the Saigon Kick Mailing List for e-mail inquiries, mailto:email_address_removed ************************************************************** ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:57:13 -0500 From: Kevin Madden To: email_address_removed Subject: Washington Post Reviews Message-ID: I read that review in the "Weekend" section yesterday, too. That reviewer has NEVER written a positive review for a rock band yet. Of course, that all he reviews; rock bands - usually the heavier ones. Why do they bother hiring a guy to do reviews of a musical form for which he obviously has no affinity? Guess who did the Yes review? Same guy. Spent more time cracking on the audience than the band. Anyway, the guy has no ear for rock music (anyone who can say that Big Wreck and DT are cut from exactly the same mold obviously doesn't listen to cds) and he dogs EVERYTHING. He did the cd reviews for Bruce Dickinson's new one, too. Slammed it. "Nothing new - same old rehash of Maiden" he wrote. He talked about AoB like it was all about Satan or something. I think what he does is listens to the single and then scans the lyrics. He talked about screaming on "Man of Sorrows." WTF??? And then he made some pop psych analysis of Dickinson based on the "MoS" lyrics. If he knew anything, he would know that the song was written for a soundtrack of a movie about Anton LaVey, and was being sung in that character. But, no. /rant off CD of the Day: Overkill - From the Underground and Below Green Bay Packers - The Quest to Repeat - Detroit Red Wings 8-3 14-6-4 vs Cowboys at Montreal Kevin ------------------------------ Date: Sun, 23 Nov 1997 03:18:39 +1000 From: Chris Groves To: email_address_removed Subject: Australian DT article. Message-ID: Okay, before I type up this article for y'all, just a quick disclaimer: it is the MAGAZINE, which labels our beloved Mr. Portnoy "Mark". Not me. Okay? :-) All spelling/naming mistakes have been included on behalf of Loudmouth Magazine. Volume 1, Issue 7. November, 1997. LISTEN AND LEARN. Dream Theater are an enigma. Their breakthrough album in 1992, _Images And Words_, introduced the world to a band that was not just another progressive metal band but an act who, throughout their five year history, has built a devoted fan base by staying true to their original musical style and not getting involved in passing trends. Their music may not be immediate but has a depth that attests to their proficiency. Their new album, _Falling Into Infinity_ is more of the same; long, multi-layered songs that are both metal and rock, from Yes to Nine Inch Nails. I spoke to founding member, drummer Mark Portnoy about the latest Dream Theater venture. "_Falling Into Infinity_ was a yaer and a half in the making in terms of the writing process. We had two and a half hours of music leading into the studio so we had lots of material to choose from. I thought it was going t o be a big fight over what songs to leave out but everyone seemed pretty unanimous. We chose 10 or 11 that created a balance because we didn't want too many heavy ones or progressive ones." While the album is straight up Dream Theater, it feels a lot more accessible in 1997. "It was slightly unconscious but of course it was in the back of our heads that we wanted to be more focussed, which I think is a better word, rather than getting sidetracked. We wanted to keep some songs long and technical but with certain songs we wanted to keep them more digestible or accessible, so in a way it was a conscious effort but we did it in a way so it still sounds totally like us. We try to make albums as compared to songs. It's almost as if you're watching a movie, it takes you on a journey. We make albums where most bands today make singles." Dream Theater also used a wide variety of instruments on the album. "What we did this time out with Kevin [Shirley, album producer] was record every song separately from top to bottom and then choose the appropriate instruments and then mix it separately. That way every song has personality and it was there that we could use different instruments such as a slide guitar or a 12 string or a bellatron [a type of guitar, apparently], which enabled us to get a little experimental in that respect. "To be perfectly honest with you," Mark continues, "a lot of current music I don't like because it's so blatantly commercial." You could never accuse Dream Theater of such a thing. They are very much their own entity. "You have to be. The minute you try to fit a trend it's going to change and you're going to be left in the dust. If you just do what you do that's where you create your own sound and that's the kind of stuff that's timeless." So there's no baggy pants or tracky dakks there matey? "Ha! Let me tell you something. I actually cut my hair but I waited until all my pictures for the album were done beause I didn't want anyone to judge the album by a haircut. Whereas most bands would cut their hair to get an audience, I actually cut my hair so I wouldn't alienate our audience. And I only wear baggy pants for comfort." Mark is always honest when it's put to him that on first listen Dream Theater's music won't have you diving off the furniture. In fact, for the uninitiated, that first listen could be a bit much. "The first thing I would have to say is that you have to listen to the whole album to understand what we are about. You can't define what kind of band we are from one particular song. You hear something like 'Anna Lee' and you would think we sound like Nine Inch Nails or Ozzy or whatever. My point is that every song is different and in order to fully understand what the band is about you really need to hear the balance of the record, hear all the different styles. If not it's kind of pointless. "That's why I've always been against singles or videos," Mark explains. "You can't get the whole picture from one song. It's not like we're a certain style that's definable in five minutes. We want to avoid doing videos for this album unless we have to - because to be honest with you MTV and other shows are absolutely horrible. It really doesn't have anything to do with music any more, so why spend $100,000 on a video that's not going to get played? For us, it's better to use that money in a way that will benefit the band, such as a bigger stage show or an EP or whatever. We are an album band and that's how we would like people to discover us. By buying the album." Article by Sparky. THE END. The article is a one-pager, with a picture of the entire band w/ (l-r); MP, JM, KJLB, JP, DS. Chris Groves. email_address_removed.au NP: Praxis - Transmutation Live. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 08:34:34 -0800 From: Jon Kretschmer To: email_address_removed Subject: Oh boy, not another! Message-ID: >From: "Charlie Korch" >I am new to this board (but not DT). Please fill me in on Mike Bahr. I >have seen this name thrown around like a football, and I was wondering who >he REALLY is. hehe, FAQ 'em, D-man! Anyway, all this talk of Styx recently has been reminding me of a hairdresser I once had. She said her boyfriend was in Styx. Anyone know where Styx is out of? Oh, and I got so excited with the http://www.liveconcerts.com post about a concert on 11/30. I thought it would have been an awesome birthday present...Only problem is its a month to early! And Ill be home then, so I wont be able to use my fast school connection!!!!!!!!!!!!! Where is the justice in this world? Jon Jon email_address_removed ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 12:36:05 -0500 (EST) From: Lars Hellsten To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3272 Message-ID: On Fri, 21 Nov 1997 email_address_removed wrote: > wave lead) To be completely objective and factual, (sarcasm alert) Derek's > playing has more "energy" and "excitement" than Kev's on Awake. I think so too, but the intros to the songs on FII aren't as good as they were in the pre-FII era. Maybe that's the thing I liked most about Kev - he wrote the most awesome intros (LTL, TTT, Met1, 6:00, etc.)... > And last, but not least, Hell's Kitchen is the most goose-bumpiest sond on > FII for me. Especially the last minute or so. It ranks up there in my > book along with the end of the old ACOS for GPI (Goosebumps Per Inch (of For me it's Peruvian Skies (the "telling her secrets won't take them AWAAAAAAAAYYYY" line :) ), and TOT ("still awake, bringing change, etc...") But none of the instrumental parts make me feel like that the way so many of the songs like LTL, Erotomania, Met1, etc. do. ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:16:24 -0400 (EDT) From: CLARK ABEL To: email_address_removed Subject: Maturity and progression Message-ID: There have been so many interesting posts lately that I wouldn't even know where to begin quoting, so I'm just going to try to make one point here and try to be as consise as possible (yeah right). Alot of people have been trying to pin down their own definitions of what constitutes progression, and what constitutes maturity. Chris gave us alot to think about when he tried to define maturity, but one major point he made was that it was always a process of the band's sounds growing, evolving, whatever. And what strikes me as I read all of these posts about a band growing and evolving and maturing is that I just can't relate to any of them. Why be so interested in what a band did in another album when you're not even listening to that album? If I listen to Awake, I want to hear great music. I'm not thinking about I&W, because I'm not listening to I&W. So why should I care how that album relates to Awake, or even if it relates at all? Chris said that no one on this list wouldn't eventually get tired of it if DT just kept doing I&W over and over again. Well, I'm not sure I would ever get tired of it. I mean, in theory I would, but in reality, how COULD the band keep doing that album over and over again? There's so much diversity on I&W alone. Yes, if they literally just used the same styles, exact same song structures, exact same guitar patches and keyboard patches and playing the exact same solos and whatever then of course I would get sick of it. But there's another way to look at it. If they kept doing I&W over and over again in the sense that they kept writing complex, challenging, widely varied, and totally original compositions that featured alot of tasteful, yet interesting and exciting and unpredictable guitar and keyboard solos, then I would never get sick of it. And while most of those things are subjective, in my opinion, to my ears, in a way that applies only to me and to no one else, and in such a way that no one else is at all obligated to agree with me in any way, because this is just my opinion, (was that clear enough?), I feel that many of these elements, and especially the "challenging compositions" aspect, have been slowly dissapearing from DT's music. My point, which of course I got away from, is that I don't care about a band's progression, at least not as it relates to my musical experience with a given song or a given album. Why should I? It has nothing to do with the music, and that's what it's supposed to be all about, right? I don't buy an album because I want to hear the next stage in a band's development, I buy it because I want to hear the music that's on it. Getting back to Chris's argument, yes I get sick of hearing Ynwie repeat himself album after album, but honestly, I get sick of hearing Ynwie repeat himself song after song within a given album. To my ears (run the opinion disclaimer again), there isn'isn't much substance to his playing, and never that much to really grab my attention in anything he plays and then hold throughout the whole song (goddam, what a vibrato though). That's not true of an album like I&W. So no, I wouldn't mind hearing that album done again, at least in a certain sense. It's one of my favorite albums of all time, so why wouldn't I like to hear something similar? That's enough for now, but I'll probably spew again later. -Clark ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 10:55:39 -0800 (PST) From: imajica@algonet.se (Niklas Thorpenberg) To: email_address_removed Subject: drain drummer Message-ID: Hey! So you like the drummer from Drain? Here in Sweden we used to have a tv show called Knesset. It was a talk show with the same three guests every week. A few seasons back she, Martina Axén, was one of those guests. And just to annoy you even more, she seemed really nice. Oh, and she's already taken - sorry! What else? Yes, of course, they are playing my hometown on Dec. 18. 'I never forget a face, but in your case I'll be glad to make an exception.' Groucho Marx Ha det! Niklas ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:59:27 -0500 From: email_address_removed (Ernesto Schnack) To: Subject: Re: Musical Maturity (Beta 1.0) Message-ID: > D). The ability to create unique and interesting melodies. A I cant see that as a part of maturity, since the making of melodies isnt just something you can control. There are just some people blessed with a nack for good melodies. My best friend (and musical soulmate) is a pretty much mediocre guitarist, but he just comes up with the best songs, its unbelievable...but he doesnt have the skills to take that and construct the song to the point where its most effective (thats where I come in, hehe). So it has more to do with *what you do* with the melody, rather than wether you make good melodies. > As a guitarist, I can say that from the perspective of someone > trying to emulate JP (were I to attempt it), not only are things > getting more difficult, but we can now also say "That sounds like Amen. It's funny, I can play the UaGM solo with no problem (ok, not as cleanly as Petrucci, but getting there), but I still cant get that 2-note motif he play's on LITS right after 'We're dying..". Sure, I can play the 2 notes, but it just doesnt sound right... > Uhm, actually, a bit of historical information: Mozart and Beethoven also >wrote SONGS. They were not as short as the average pop song today, but Well, whaddaya know? You learn something everyday:) Actually, now that you mention it, I think I've read about that before, but I think they wrote those songs mostly to please the king (or a girl maybe?:) rather than out of artistic inspiration. > You know, you hit your nail on the head here, but to me the whole thing >with people saying it's more mature, for me, is people desperatly trying >not to get into the whole "sell-out" stuff. Again. The reason FII is more mature has nothing to do with shorter, simpler songs. If a band does something I dont like, I'll admit it (Metallica), but I've yet to hear something from DT that has disappointed me... (Well maybe the album version to TAMP to some degree). >Why be so interested in what a band did in another album when you're not even >listening to that album? If I listen to Awake, I want to hear great music. >I'm not thinking about I&W, because I'm not listening to I&W. So why should >I care how that album relates to Awake, or even if it relates at all? Chris And yet you're the one who's disappointed by FII because its such a 'departure' from I&W. The very reason I enjoy FII so much, is becuase I'm not worrying about how different it is from I&W. I just listened to it, and liked it. But to some degree, you still inevetably compare an album to other works. You were disappointed by this comparison, I wasnt. Thats life. Ern ------------------------------ Date: Sat, 22 Nov 1997 13:30:12 -0600 (CST) From: Mark Jeffrey McEuen To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: That review, the hierarchy, response Message-ID: On Sat, 22 Nov 1997, Murmer wrote: > didn't mean to imply that all of us like all prog, or whatever, just > saying 'transcend the boundaries of labels' (which is probably what DT > should do!). . . or something. All I meant to say with that was, why > bother labeling something, when all you really need to know about it is > whether you like it or not? I know that I've heard some prog before, and > just didn't like it (at least at first). .. so why feel obligated? Yeah, I think I sort of missed your point here when I responded. I agree with you completely here....labels are a convenient way to get a handle on things, and nothing more. We certainly shouldn't let ourselves be imprisoned by them. And I'm not even going to TRY to attach a label to FII. As for why we should label things, well, I personally do it mostly for purposes of communication. A label such as "prog" enables one to succinctly describe a lot of characteristics of the music. It's far from perfect, of course, but it's a good starting point. Still taking this "label" thing way too seriously, Mark McEuen email_address_removed ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3276 **************************