YTSEJAM Digest 3051 Today's Topics: 1) FII; a shameless plug.... by email_address_removed 2) Images and Words by CLARK ABEL 3) Clark's spiel part II by CLARK ABEL 4) Desktop theme suggestion by "II Stephane Fortin" 5) Re: Do You Feel Like We Do? by "James" 6) Arash by email_address_removed (Stephen LaMonica) 7) FII, Birth year < 1965. by "Edwin Voras" 8) Re: Unsub info by Jeremy Ulrey 9) Re: Reviews by Jeremy Ulrey 10) Spelling Problem by YtseJim 11) dt dates by email_address_removed 12) Steve Vai and Joe Satriani by "James Thorpe" 13) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3050 by Mike Pontrelli 14) Myung and a pick, Savatage by Seth Hatlelid 15) Caught in Alice 9 Inch Tool Garden/Angra Bootlegs by Rogerio Brito 16) Re: YTSEJAM digest 3050 by "Christopher R. Merlo" 17) Camel?? by Rogerio Brito ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Wed, 1 Oct 97 12:27:01 -0500 From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Cc: email_address_removed Subject: FII; a shameless plug.... Message-ID: At first I was bummed....like when I first heard HITNF By Ryche (I still don't listen tot hat much, though I caught 'em at Alpine Valley last summer). But this albums KICKS!! ToT; LITS and NM are my faves. What's with the productionon this disc? I really find it to be reverbe heavy and muddy. The clarity and separation I've found on previous releases isn't there. I haven't listened through headphones, but a good production piece doesn't need phones to have clarity. I have an excellent sound system and I really don't think the disc would sound different coming from one speaker as opposed to getting use of both. Not impressed. Vegas jammers!!! I would love to invite you to The DRINK on October 16. My acid-jazz band is being flown from Chicago to play there and it'd be cool to meet any of you who happen to go out during the week. I hope the place isn't a girls with big hair place like in Chicago, but I haven't been to Vegas, yet so two night there won't hurt. Finally, the Chicago Reader isn't listing DT at House of Blues in yet; neither is the House fo Blues concert line. Is the Nov. 1 date a reality at all? LATER- Steve ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:44:15 -0500 (EST) From: CLARK ABEL To: email_address_removed Subject: Images and Words Message-ID: All the recent talk about "take FII for what it is, and don't compare it to the other albums" has lead me to do exactly the opposite, and revisit I&W. In the process, I've realized exactly what it is about that album that I love so much, and why I'm somewhat dissapointed with FII. I'll warn you right now that comparisons between the two are inevitable, so if you can't deal with that just skip this post right now. I promise it will all be constructive, though. This is going to be long, so I'll probably send it in two parts. I think that of all the things I love about I&W, the aspect of it that I love the most is that DT (in my ever humble opinion) managed to completely avoid two major rock cliches when they wrote that album. The first (I feel like I'm writing a school paper) is the structure of the songs. My biggest complaint with FII is that the band seems to be moving towards the more traditional pop music "verse/pre-chorus/chorus/verse/pre-chorus/chorus/solo. /chorus/chorus/chorus" format when it comes to song structure. This is just a generalization, but when I listen to a song like Hollow years, I hear a beautiful melody, but I just feel like the song could have been so much more. It's like they took a great melodic idea, and then they just left it to die. Some people would call this "concise" or "mature" songwriting, but frankly, I call it boring and cliched. I would rather hear DT take a relatively uninspired musical or melodic idea and explore its potential by playing around with it and expanding on it, than to hear them take a good melodic idea and just play it a few times then just leave it alone. I know this will really piss some people off because I'm "telling the band what to do", but this brings me back to I&W. With the exception AD and, to a lesser extent, Surrounded, the basic structure of th songs on I&W are TOTALLY unconventional. In fact, I have always thought that on Images and Words DT went beyond merely writing songs and took the next step to writing compositions. Even PMU, which is often considered to be one of their more "commercial" songs, has a totally unique format. The song kind of has two choruses, which don't even appear in the same place relative to each other, and there are all kinds of themes that seem to appear once and then dissapear, only to reappear in some subtle way later on (the guitar intro, and the first heavy riff, which appears later under the chorus in a different key). To me, I&W sounds like they wrote every piece with a completely open mind, and with no preconcieved notions as to what "should" come next. Actually, this aspect of the band's creativity was still very much intact on Awake, and can still be found to a large extent on FII. However, it justs seems to me like there are a few songs on FII that could have been so much more if the band had explored the ideas within them more. I said a couple of days ago that a great piece of music is as much a journey as a great piece of literature,and I believe that. I'll expand the metaphor by saying that when you write a song with that repetitive verse/chorus/verse/chorus format, it seems to me like taking a journey that consists of walking around in a very small circle for a few minutes and then just stopping at some arbitrary point. You don't get anything new on the second or third time around the circle. TBC... ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:07:25 -0500 (EST) From: CLARK ABEL To: email_address_removed Subject: Clark's spiel part II Message-ID: The other thing that I love even more about I&W is related, but even more subtle. Hard rock and especially metal guitar playing has always kind of been divided into two categories: rhythm and lead. This writing philosophy has become so prevalent that it's just kind of taken as a given nowadays, but on I&W, I really feel that JP accomplished something totally unique in that he blurred, and in some cases completely obliterated this line between "rhythm guitar" and "lead guitar". On the other hand, it seems to me that all of the guitar parts on Awake can be pretty easily divided into riffs and solos. There are of course a few exceptions, such as most of IF (which, incidentally, I think is in more of the I&W style) and the instrumental section of CiaW, which is kind of like a rhythm guitar solo. Of course, there are guitar solos on I&W as well, but look at the instrumental section of TT at 3:48, or especially at 4:04 and 5:50. Listen to the instrumental section of Metropolis, or the "rhythm guitar" intro to UaGM, or, especially, the section of UaGM where KJLB sings "By your hand, I've awakened". Most of LTL applies as well. I challenge anyone to tell me whether JP is playing "rhythm" or "lead" on any of these section. No matter which way you answer, I could make a good argument the other way. But the point is that the answer doesn't matter, and that's what's so beautiful about this album. To my ears, JP didn't say "I'm going to throw a solo in here now" or "I'm playing rhythm guitar now", he just said: "what would be the perfect guitar part for this section of the song?". This album was written without any rules or any preconceived notion as to what a "song" should be, and I think that the results are spectacular. I would also argue that in some spots on I&W, even when JP is playing a part that can clearly be considered lead, what he is playing is so melodicallypure that you can't really call it a guitar solo. He'l simply playing melody. To me, the entire instrumental section of LTL is like this. I guess my point here is this; on Awake and FII, JP's solos seem to be just that: solos. He's a great lead player, of course, and his solos are always innovative and exciting. But I really feel that on I&W, he got beyond this limiting, somewhat cliched idea of separating everything into rhythm and lead, and just played MUSIC in a way that very few rock musicians have done. Some of the solos on Awake just sound like a barrage of notes. But when I study a solo from I&W, I get the impression that every note was very carefully chosen. Sure, JP shreds on I&W, but when he plays fast, it always serves to accent th melody he's playing on the guitar. Whereas on a solo like the one to Voices, it feels to me like he's just playing fast for the sake of playing fast. Admittedly, this is more subjective than the other stuff I wrote above, so please understand that I realize this is just my opinion. Why the hell did I write all this? I'm not really sure myself. I guess this is my response to all of the people who have said "you can't judge this new album in relation to DT's other albums". I can understand where you're coming from, but what I'm trying to explain is that for some of us, Dream Theater is the band that crated what we consider to be one of the most revolutionary rock albums of all time. Given that, it's pretty tough not to have certain expectations of the band. Despite what some of you would suggest, no one can listen to music in a vacuum. Everything I have ever heard has in some way influenced my current musical taste. So while I do love FII, and I do think that it's the best new album I've hear in a long time, I can't help but be dissapointed by it at the same time, and I'm not about to apologize for that to anyone. I hope this will clear up for some people exactly why that is. I also wrote this because I'm really bored with the 'jam lately, and I decided to try to generate some discussion that interests me instead of just bitching. So let's hear some thoughts on this. I'm sure some people response to the rhythm/lead thing will be "yeah, you're right, but so what?". But that'sfine, I AM open to other people's opinions. These are just my thoughts, I'm not trying to force my opinions down anyone's throats. -Clark email_address_removed ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:04:47 -0400 From: "II Stephane Fortin" To: Ytsejam Subject: Desktop theme suggestion Message-ID: <343290BF.B210BBB5@rmc.ca> Hi jammers! I was just thinking, wouldn't it be great to have a new Dream Theater desktop theme about FII??? I think it'd be great after what I've seen with the last one (Awake as wallpaper). take care!!! Stef Le Dragon ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 11:47:38 -0700 From: "James" To: Subject: Re: Do You Feel Like We Do? Message-ID: <01bcce9a$7d92f640$message_id_removed> >'Lines In The Sand' was playing, when suddenly >around the 6 minute 30 second mark I thought "I know this from >somewhere else". Then it struck me - 'Do You Feel Like We Do' >from the 70s album 'Frampton Comes Alive'. Anybody else hear >this? But then I guess I'm not entitled to say things like this, since I >don't play an instrument myself, and only other musicians are >qualified to voice an opinion about music... YES! I was wondering if anyone else had noticed this ... the chord progression starts out just like "Do you Feel Like We Do" then changes and goes on from there....cool ! And hey, dont feel bad because you aren't a musician, or whatever. We're all equals and your opinion is just as valid as anyones... :-) peace James ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:33:07 -0400 (EDT) From: email_address_removed (Stephen LaMonica) To: email_address_removed Subject: Arash Message-ID: This is for Arash, I am glad to see you included Enchant in your top 10, I own that cd and enjoy it a lot. Have you noticed the last song on the disc kind of sounds like DT's 6:00? It is a good song, but the bass is really similar to 6:00(not to mention the drum intro). If you like Enchant, you might want to check out Altura. They have a cd on Magna Carta entitled Mercy. It is a pretty decent prog cd. One of the better young bands. PS-Merlo.....*plunge*? Oooo that's gotta hurt. :( Ouch! ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 11:43 -0700 (MST) From: "Edwin Voras" To: Ytsejam Subject: FII, Birth year < 1965. Message-ID: <19971001184357.AAA1136@localHost> 1) Tom Baddley asked: >Do we have anyone on here born before 1965? Just curious if I was >the only older DT fan on the jam. Yes mine is before 1965, but just how much I think I'll keep a secret for now. 2) Just my few thoughts on FII. After listening non-stop since 00:01 23 Sept. (thanks for the company Phx. road jammers), I am totally blown away. It's not the same as I&W, or Awake, or..., but it's great for what it is. Sure it's not as outwardly complex, but it is still complex and thought provoking. It has a serious groove and I personally feel the production is pretty good. Again not the same as I&W etc, but it shouldn't be. The songs are all well written and the whole thing flows well. J.P. is just totally awesome as always. I must admit I would love to hear more shred solos, but hey I'm a guitar player so wadda ya want. It doesn't mean that I love the CD any less tho. Mikey is kickin' ass too. The sounded a little strange at first but it's growing on me. It's really good to hear JM up in the mix too. (I play a little bass too, does that make me predjudiced?) I have to say James is the best vocalist I've heard. To me he shows great emotion in his voice. Lastly there's Derek. Personally I liked him before this CD. Now all I can say is YES!! He adds a whole new dimension and a real Jazzy feel, (I think I've heard that somewhere B4.) I liked KM and think he was a great player, but I really prefer DS's style. Well that's about it. Ijust want to say this is all just My Opinion, and welcome any private discussions. Ytse on dudes, eD ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 13:43:44 -0700 From: Jeremy Ulrey To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Unsub info Message-ID: Chris wrote: > I think it should be a part of every mailing list...for >those people who >were accidentally subscribed and don't know the rules, >etc...and for those >who deleted the welcome message... I agree with this. It's ludicrous to have to save a large text file to disk (probably several if you subscribe to different lists) just so you'll know how to unsubscribe if you get busy or the list gets boring. It really shouldn't be a problem to add one more line to the end of each digest, and I'd argue that this function is more important than the address to the FAQ. Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 14:05:31 -0700 From: Jeremy Ulrey To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Reviews Message-ID: Someone wrote (and many have quoted): > but why don't you check out thier reviews on the Spice Girls' album or > Oasis' new one? It should be noted that there are two forms of music criticism: artistic and popular, though these are arbitrary terms I've made up on the spot. Basically some journalists seek to actually regard each work in terms of it's artistic merit, historical significance and longevity, while others write purely for commercial reasons- they may not even like CDs they give good reviews for (and vice versa); they merely attempt to guess how it's going to go over with the mass public (A good example would be Entertainment Weekly).The latter journalists, who are usually those most reviled, seek only to give the average Joe an idea of whether or not he will like the CD enough to spend his money purchasing it. (Here we're getting dangerously close to the idea of whether everyone's opinion is exactly equal, or whether some bring more to the table than others, but due to the lack of responses to my previous post on the subject I'll take the hint and let the subject rest). I haven't read the review personally, but it sounds like one that would fit into the commercial category. Keep in mind that there can be significant overlap between the two categories, with some critics misguidedly attempting to do both things at once, and some critics who are popularly considered one type may actually be the other. For instance, Rolling Stone magazine is often considered the bastion of good academic criticism due to it's lengthy reviews and it's writers' mastery of meaningless hyperbole. Nevertheless, you don't have to dig too deep to recognize that, far more often than not, whatever they give good reviews to ends up on radio/MTV and those that they don't get lost in the shuffle. Like MTV, Rolling Stone seeks to shape the public's taste in music (selling a few more magazines in the process), though they'd hardly admit to such a thing. Now, all that being said, with most of the members of the list in utter disgust that a journalist would forsake his integrity and go for the money and commercial acceptance, let us observe that this is EXACTLY the behavior most people are defending Dream Theater for in the first place. Both DT and the critic who's bashing them are going for the SAME FUCKING audience, which is more irony than my thirsty wit is capable of absorbing! Jeremy ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 15:11:58 -0400 From: YtseJim To: email_address_removed Subject: Spelling Problem Message-ID: With all this grammer talk going on, it reminded me of what happened when i went to Sam Goody about a month ago...I was lookin at the New Release list behind the counter and they had: Sept. 23 Dream Theatre So i say to the clerk, 'You spelled the Band's name wrong' She's like, 'Which one?' I said, 'Dream Theater, it's spelled with an E-R. see....(as i point to my friends shirt)' she says, 'Well, thats the English Spelling..' I said 'So what? It's still not the name of the band.' so she replies, 'I don't care' I tell ya, the nerve of some people. This world needs a little more Respect ;) YtseJim ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:12:33 -0400 (EDT) From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: dt dates Message-ID: Anyone know where I can find us DT concert dates (if there are any)? I would appreciate it. PLEASE E-MAIL ME PRIVATELY, NOT TO THE JAM! Also, I read something about a DT cd-rom. I haven't heard a thing about that since I've been out the thread on the jam for a while. If you can help me with either item, that would be great! Thanks, Mike Washkevich i 3{Ku3z"l=2Q$ g[wwO@M,pZb;3" ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 12:17:46 -0700 From: "James Thorpe" To: Subject: Steve Vai and Joe Satriani Message-ID: Well, I just got back from a killer show at Sacramento. Steve Vai and Joe Satriani. It was simply the best instrumental guitar show I've been to. The audience was totally pumped. It gave you the impression that Shred music was extremly popular or something. :) Steve appeared to have an incredible time. The audience interupted him a couple times because of standing ovations. I'm guessing there were around 5000 people. Very intimate show. Vai was like Richard Simmons making everyone stand up and sit like a conductor doing simon sez. It was hilarious. I hope all of you jammers can checkout their G3 shows. They'll be at the Concord (CA) Pavillion this Sunday. Check his website for tour-dates. www.vai.com >This from Tony's Levin's web page, sorry if this has been posted: >Well, we finished the rhythm tracks of the project currently titled >"Millenium Project" - Mike Portnoy and John Petrucci of Dream Theater, Jordan >Rudes of Dixie Dregs -- and me, trying to keep up! (Boy, these guys play >FAST! ) Hopefully that cd will be ready for release by the end of the year >(it'll be on Magna Carta Records, and I'll put up a note and link when it's >ready.) We had some amusing moments, some of the riffs being so fast I must >admit I had to punch in my bass parts bar by bar. (no shame!)<< Man, this has got to be the most exciting thing for Extreme Prog music. I can't wait!!!! Jordan Rudess is insane. He's the Jason Becker of Keyboardists. peace, --james-- third heaven studio "Animation can explain whatever the mind of man can conceive" -Walt Disney ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 15:17:49 -0400 (EDT) From: Mike Pontrelli To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3050 Message-ID: Hey.. for those who think DSotM and Oz are a hell of a coincident.. play "Echoes" with "Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite" (2001) together. It will blow your mind. My favourite song and movie joining together in psychedelic magic =) Cheers! -Ponte ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 14:25:20 -0500 From: Seth Hatlelid To: email_address_removed Subject: Myung and a pick, Savatage Message-ID: as to the question of whether or not Myung is using a pick at the begining of Burning My Soul, I thought the same thing at first. I have never seen Myung use a pick and as a jazz-taught musician, he would probably hold the pick in disdain (as do I as a matter of personal opion, plectrums limit your playing too much). I messed around with my rig for a while (Vantage six string run through a couple of Eden cabs) and I think that he just dropped the bass, cranked the mids and trebs and hit the strings with a stacato attack. Sounds pretty close to me anyway. Also, Has Savatage's the Wake of Magellan been released yet and does anybody know if it is worth picking up? If they albums come at so close, I wonder about the possibility of a Dream Theater/Savatage tour. Probably not, I have a feeling DT is going to try to with "hip" bands to attract a bigger more diverse crowd. Ever notice how Megadeth do that (Megadeth and Stone Temple Pilots? Megadeth and Korn?-cool show though). FII-is rapidly becoming my Fav DT album. I think I have discovered the problem with Portnoy's bad lyrics. His lyrics on ACOS were incredible because they were so lengthy and complicated that he probably revised them a thoudsand times. The lyrics to BMS seem like a toss of. If he took the time to work on them a little, mayabe they wouldn't have sucked so badly (IMHO) Also to the whose quote I stole, could you please post your name so that I can credit it. Thanks Seth Hatlelid email_address_removed "If lobsters looked like puppies, people could never drop them in boiling water while they're still alive. But instead, they look like science fiction monsters, so it's OK. Restaurants that allow patrons to select live lobsters from a tank should be made to paint names on their shells: "Happy", "Baby Doll", "Junior." I defy anyone to drop a living thing called "Happy" in rapidly boiling water." -Unknown ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:26:24 -0300 (EST) From: Rogerio Brito To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Caught in Alice 9 Inch Tool Garden/Angra Bootlegs Message-ID: On Wed, 1 Oct 1997, Shai Yallin wrote: > And for a different subject: > > There's this song called "Caught in Alices 9 Inch Tool Gardern" which I > never got a chance to listen to. Can anyone point a URL where I can find > it but NOT on RA stream? Well, CiA9ITG is not a new song. It is the usual "Caught in a Web", but with some industrial rock elements thrown in it. It is the version they're (they were) playing during the Fix for '96/'97 shows (has the new tour started yet?) And for a yet different subject: What are the Angra bootlegs you know about?? Yesterday I got a boot (2CD) called "Holy Land in the East". It is an audience recording of a show in Osaka/Japan and it has an ok sound (I think that if I ever get a good sound editor, I can easily fix its sound to add basses & trebles and reduce the midrange and press another CD from it). Anyway, it is an ok bootleg (maybe a little better than OK), but I yesterday I heard a really *TERRIBLE* boot from the "Angels Cry" tour: the performance was just ok, the sound quality was simply unacceptable and Andre' Matos voice was... Well, let's just say that James LaBrie's voice on the Japan Pay Per View show was really much better... :-) It was a bootleg recorded here in Sao Paulo (I can't remember the title). I guess that Andre Matos took a lot of training between the tours. I'd like to to know if you know of other bootlegs... > Thanx in advance, > > -- > Shai Yallin - Kurush on #YTSEJAM []s, Roger... -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - email_address_removed.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html "Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters" James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 01 Oct 1997 15:32:02 -0400 From: "Christopher R. Merlo" To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 3050 Message-ID: > Hey.. for those who think DSotM and Oz are a hell of a coincident.. > play "Echoes" with "Jupiter and Beyond the Infinite" (2001) together. > It will blow your mind. My favourite song and movie joining together in > psychedelic magic =) Yeah, but both Kubrick and the band admit that that was on purpose. Dark Side of the Rainbow, however... mwahahahahaha :) Spooky! ------------------------------------------------------------------------ The Digital Man \|/ ____ \|/ "640 K ought to be enough email_address_removed "@'/ ,. \`@" memory for everyone." -Gates email_address_removed /_| \__/ |_\ "He won't need a bed http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo \__U_/ He's a digital man" -Peart ------------------------------------------------------------------------ Maintainer of the Official Dream Theater Frequently Asked Questions List http://www.cs.wm.edu/~cmerlo/dtfaq.html ------------------------------ Date: Wed, 1 Oct 1997 16:34:37 -0300 (EST) From: Rogerio Brito To: email_address_removed Subject: Camel?? Message-ID: Hi, there... Anyone knows about a progressive band called Camel?? Are they worth checking?? Thank you for any information, Roger... -- =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Rogerio Brito - email_address_removed.br - http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito Undergraduate Computer Science Student - "Windows? Linux and X!" Bootleg/trade page: http://www.ime.usp.br/~rbrito/bootleg.html "Life is ours, we live it our way (...) / And nothing else matters" James Hetfield (Metallica), Nothing Else Matters =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3051 **************************