YTSEJAM Digest 3017 Today's Topics: 1) Falling Into Infinity Pt.II by email_address_removed 2) Wankiness, odd time sigs, technicality, etc.... by CLARK ABEL 3) Re: FII is NOT crap. by Eric Rodger 4) Jees....settle down! by Brandon Vaughn 5) Deep In Heaven!?!? by Christopher J Daley 6) YOU'RE the idiot! by "L. Jason Hartman" 7) by email_address_removed (Pat Sullivan) 8) Japanese Version of FII by Markus Tenberge 9) Wayne, New Jersey by Adam Barnhart 10) RE: YTSEJAM digest 3013 by "Tedesco, Matthew" ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:57:07 -0400 (EDT) From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Falling Into Infinity Pt.II Message-ID: "Peruvian Skies" Very dark begining and very GROOVING ending.'Nuff said. I really like the change to the ball's 'n chunk ending.I love the vocal's here.Very emotional from JLB.I like this one. "Hollow Years" I have to admit I was thrown back when I heard the beginning of this one.I was thinking of my wife on our honeymoon. It is the shanish style guitar that starts it off. It's kind of romantic.Then I got back to reality once I read the lyrics.Very deep song,IMHO.Great piano work here and all oveer the album. DS is sooooo nasty.(I mean that in a good way!) I love the harmonies. "Burning My Solo" This one is definitley burned into MY soul.BMS rocks so hard that the first time I heard it I was jumping up and down.The second time I listened to it,I was stunned. I couldn't believe what I was hearing.Even now while listening I have to stop and just take it in................................Damn it is soooooo GROOVING!! I absolutely love the key solo.Yes I thought it was JP for a couple of measures.MP is a great lyricist.Very cynical. And oh.......HE IS GOD OF DRUMS AND PERCUSSION!!! He is all over the place the entire album,but never in the way of the song. Glen ".....there's more to come,so stick around." Unknown. ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:57:38 -0400 (EDT) From: CLARK ABEL To: email_address_removed Subject: Wankiness, odd time sigs, technicality, etc.... Message-ID: Before I write this, I just want to say that I am not trying to single Nicholas out, his post just happened to say a number of things all at once that have been bothering me... >.. and tell me exactly WHY they think the production sucks? >Is it because you can finally hear the bass in the songs? Or is it No. This is why I don't like the production. Others may have other reasons. To me, the most basic definition of what constitutes good production is this: A full, big sound that surrounds you, but, most importantly, one in which you can clearly distinguish every part and hear everything that every instrument plays. Obviously, there are other factors, but if a producer doesn't at least get this right, then it makes the music very difficult for me to listento. Awake had excellent production for this reason. And although some would disagree, I love the sound on I&W as well, for the same reason. On FII, the guitar and keys are often really indistinguishable from one another. It's not that they're mixed too low, there's just too much noise. A lot of it has to do with the guitar tones used. Who's responsible for this decision, I have no idea. >Or maybe it's because this isn't I&W, or Awake, or ACoS, and you're all >bent out of shape because you were expecting one of those. I'm sorry, God damn it I'm sick of this shit. Am I the only person on this list who thinks that this is the most idiotic argument they've ever heard? What the fuck is wrong with liking I&W, which I do, and being dissapointed that the band has gone in a completely different direction? It's not like people are saying that the band can't do that if they want to. But if I like one album, and the next one is totally different, why the fuck should I pretend to like it? People on this list have become so mindless that no one even objects to this stupid argument anymore. Everyone thinks they're being so clever when they say: "Well they're a PROGRESSIVE band, so of course this album is going to be different." This is so STUPID. I've said it before, and I'll say it again: you cannot define a musical genre by the fact that it never sounds the same. The definition of progressive you all pretend to go by includes every band that ever existed. I'm not going to argue that definition any more, because I don't give a fuck. I don't like most progressive bands anyways. But before someone uses this argument again to justify the drastic changes of FII, try this: instead of just spouting this mindless crap about "progressing" just because you saw someone else on here say and thought it sounded kind of cool, try explaining to those of us with minds HOW this album is a PROGRESSION from Awake.CHANGE is not the same thing as PROGRESS. I'm sorry to use all the capitals, but a lot of people just don't get this very simple concept. >And for those of you who claim that the songwriting on FII is >substandard: no, it's not. See above paragraph. This is one of the best >albums I have heard in months, if not years, and there is NOTHING below >par about the songwriting on it. It's top-notch, and in some places, >doesn't border on genius, but far surpasses it. I'm sorry that you don't >think it's prog enough, or that it's not wanky enough, or that the time >signatures are all in 4/4 or 3/4 (oh! That's too easy! I want 19/8!!), >but if all you care about is how technical DT are in their songs, then >open your ears to some other types of music. This is also one of the best albums I have heard in months. But will this album ever come close to I&W, or even Awake, for me? I seriously doubt it. I've had it for a few weeks now, which is still not enough time to really know it. But you know what? the fact that I don't like this album as much does not make me close minded. Now everybody listen up, because I'm only going to say this once: IT JUST MEANS THAT I LIKE THE STYLE AND THE SONGWRITING ON IMAGES AND WORDS BETTER. This is possible. It's not the result of a closed mind. It is the result of liking one thing better than the other. Fuck all of you mindless idiots who can't understand that because you're too busy worshipping a band that, guess what? is just five guys. Sorry, folks, but Dream Theater is just five guys who have worked very hard and as a result are very good musicians. This does not mean that you aren't allowed to not like a song, or even most of an album, that they create. And if admitting that this album is not on par with their other albums is actually going to destroy your world, then I truly pity you. The lyrics on this album SUCK compared to I&W. Yes, that is an opinion, not a fact. But it is a very valid opinion, and one which I can back up. I won't bother to now, because I already tried a few weeks ago and no one wanted to think enough to respond to it then, so I'm not going to waste my time now. And as for "wankiness", let me clear something else up... "TECHNICAL" MUSIC IS NOT NECESSARILLY VOID OF EMOTION. People keep saying how this album has such a great groove, and how there's so much more emotion now, blah blah blah... well guess what? Those are subjective terms, so don't assume that because I or someone else likes I&W better, that they can't hear emotion, or that they're only interested in showing off. If a groove is playing boring riffs in 4/4, then I'm not interested in "groove". And I&W is, for me, the most emotional musical expression I have ever heard, right down to the instrumental section of Metropolis. So don't assume that you know why someone else listens to and likes the music that they do, because you have no idea. If you think that these are good lyrics or that this is real emotion on FII, then maybe you really just don't get they're older albums anyways. I don't care how many people this pisses off, but If you can really put this new album on the same level as DT's older stuff, then you just weren't getting it in the first place. Yeah, that's just my opinion, and I can't really know that, but that's the only conclusion I can draw, because this album is NOT as deep as Images and Words or WDADU. And if it is, you couldn't possibly know thatby now anyways, could you? >If I sound pissed off, I am. I joined this list because I thought that >it was for people who were fans of Dream Theater to discuss Dream I can tell. I joined this list so I could have some intelligent discussions about good music, and what good music is. Unfortunately, nowadays that discussion can only continue as long as no one says anything negative about OFB. Well, that's the end of my little rant. If you're still reading, it probably doesn't apply to you anyway. -Clark ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:01:30 -0400 From: Eric Rodger To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: FII is NOT crap. Message-ID: Christian, Jason Hartman didn't write that post that you refer to, he merely forwarded it, so thanks for the contribution, but take a seat. Secondly, you're right about the production being 'warm', and well, that's what I hate about it. I think many others agree. And about this: >a) Guitar tone. Do I need to explain? Considering the guitar tone is different on every song, what point are you trying to make? Sure the guitar sound kicks my ass in Peruvian Skies, Burning My Soul and Just Let Me Breathe, but it sucks in New Millenium and You Not Me. So I guess you obviously need to explain. KAI At 08:20 AM 9/25/97 -0700, Christian wrote: > > >AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!!!!!! > >1) I think everybody that says the production on FII sucks should get a time >machine and get back to the 80s. The production on this CD is great and it >serves what it was meant to sound like. All the sounds are warm and nice and >clear. Every song has different sounds from all the instruments. It sounds >great. I take it personally when people bash the production on this CD. A >big Fuck You to all of you. > >2) I think the songs are great. Everybody that wants Images and Words again >should get a time machine and get back in time a few years, to be able to >re-live the release of I&W. But don't clutter the jam with stupid comments >like "it's not prog enough" (have you heard the CD?), "it's grungy" (HAVE >YOU HEARD THE CD?????), etc. >I think this is DT's finest effort ever. > >3) Kevin Shirley is awesome. Not only did he get great warm sounds out of >everybody, he also made the band not be obsolete in the current music scene, >just working out little details: >a) Guitar tone. Do I need to explain? >b) He brought the bass up in the mix. >c) Keyboards are there to create moods, and they're fine in the volume they are. >d) Most important of all: he got James to get rid of that vibrato he has. >Technically it's good, but it has no place in DT. DT is not Journey. You >might like it, but it sounds like the 80s. The 80s are gone. Live with it. >Everybody else is. Or else, get in the fucking time machine, or just lock >yourself in your house and keep listening to your old CDs. But don't keep >making an ass of yourselves showing how you can't grasp anything that's new >or different. > >4) Steve Z, if you are such a great producer, why aren't you out there >producing bands? I haven't seen your name even in small label CDs that I >have, let alone majors. >I apologize if I'm wrong, though, in which case I want to buy a CD you >produced to check out how you can make a band sound good. > >5) L. Jason Hartman, you are an asshole. You are scum. You've posted to this >list and offended hundreds, maybe a thousand fans that liked the CD. Do no >mock Dream Theater! If you ceased being a fan, go and unsubscribe. If you >just like I&W maybe you should start a I&W mailing list only for people that >are a fan of the album but aren't fans of DT. >I have respect for people that make intelligent criticism, but just treating >a band as a joke like you're doing is offensive. I don't even do that with >the bands I hate most. I don't go out to their fans saying how bad they suck >and start making fucking stupid jokes with their song names. >I'm glad I'm not the maintainer of this list, because I would have kicked >you out of here in no time. >You just have no idea how much you pissed me off. >And you even had to post twice!!!! >My best wishes to you. Idiot. >AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! > >Later. > > >Christian. > > ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 11:43:28 -0700 From: Brandon Vaughn To: email_address_removed Subject: Jees....settle down! Message-ID: Wow, 8 jams in one day. All about people saying they love/hate the new album. That is fine, but remember ... opinions are like buttholes . . . everyone has one . . . and they all stink. Like this post: >I take it personally when people bash the production on this CD. A >big Fuck You to all of you. Uh...settle down Beavis. > . . . don't clutter the jam with stupid comments >like "it's not prog enough" (have you heard the CD?), "it's grungy" (HAVE >YOU HEARD THE CD?????), etc. >I think this is DT's finest effort ever. I think the CD is one of their greatest efforts too. But a lot of people are feeling disappointed in the fact that this is their least progressive album to date. Not that this is bad...it will just take time for some to get used to it. I think a lot of people feel betrayed (like DT owed them anything anyway!). But it is similar to when Rush turned keyboard oriented in the 80's (?). People felt betrayed. But they eventually came around (first the fans, then Rush). The bad (and good) thing about DT is that they play such a diversity of styles. Before, people who liked very technical time shifts and riffs had a wealth of it from the band. People who liked the thrash and grunge were treated to it on occasion. People who liked up-front keyboards....People who liked wild guitar . . . People who liked more rock in a Neil Peart style drummer. Look at the people who argue about Awake vs. I&W. Mostly it is because one is heavier than the other, and one a little more technical. I think they are now settling for a sound, and not trying to be the prog band for all people of all styles and preferences. More power to them! I will just have to find other bands that will continue doing the real technical stuff (like Shadow Gallery, Spock's Beard, etc.), because I really like that. > Kevin Shirley is awesome. Not only did he get great warm sounds out of >everybody, he also made the band not be obsolete in the current music scene, >just working out little details: >a) Guitar tone. Do I need to explain? >b) He brought the bass up in the mix. >c) Keyboards are there to create moods, and they're fine in the volume they are. I think he did a great job. But I don't agree that the keyboard is only to create moods (and I'm a guitarist...man am I crazy?!). Yes at certain times. But at times, Sherinian is so low that they might as just well play with a sequencer or tape. And the guitar tone I love at times and hate at times. There are some songs it sounds too trashy. But that is probably more of Petrucci's preference than Shirley's. Again, though, it is probably the sound they are after, too. But then again, there may be something wrong with what Shirley did as this Jammer found out: > So just to settle it, I DA-ripped it onto my PC's hard drive and lookied >at the waveform. What I saw made me cuss and swear for the next forty-five >minutes. THE WAVEFORM IS CLIPPED! The fucking album is recorded way over >the dynamic range of the CD. When they mastered the damn disc, they just >clipped off the waveform at 0-db. Yes - the waveform is FLAT at the top. >If anyone out here has any recording experience, you'll know what I mean. >If not, think of mashing a sign wave - no curvature. > This is UNFORGIVABLE, IMO. Whoever mastered/recorded/mixed this album >needs to go back to school - needs to learn how to work a fucking digital >recording system. I'm pissed off. DT deserved better than this! Maybe this is the reason some people don't like the production (though I'm not sure what difference clipping makes to the overall sound). >L. Jason Hartman, you are an asshole. You are scum. You've posted to this >list and offended hundreds, maybe a thousand fans that liked the CD. Do no Be careful...you might get the infamous "finger" post. \\||// ~~..'~ ( \ ) Brandon Vaughn \ c/ __\/__ "The Mad Tabber" / \ _< . _ \ email_address_removed \ `\ \ -' / \ \ ,,,_ >|""O[|||||nn[:::< email_address_removed /_,--- ._\ '''''~ ~ | | | | | ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:45:58 -0400 (EDT) From: Christopher J Daley To: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Deep In Heaven!?!? Message-ID: What the heck is Deep In Heaven??? I'd wonder if that was a super-hidden bonus track like the ones on NiN-Broken..but my CD player stops....could somebody enlighten me as to what in the world this song is? Thank ya! ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 12:51:10 -0400 (EDT) From: "L. Jason Hartman" To: email_address_removed Subject: YOU'RE the idiot! Message-ID: In the last jam Christian wrote.... 5) L. Jason Hartman, you are an asshole. You are scum. You've posted to this list and offended hundreds, maybe a thousand fans that liked the CD. Do no mock Dream Theater! If you ceased being a fan, go and unsubscribe. If you just like I&W maybe you should start a I&W mailing list only for people that are a fan of the album but aren't fans of DT. I have respect for people that make intelligent criticism, but just treating a band as a joke like you're doing is offensive. I don't even do that with the bands I hate most. I don't go out to their fans saying how bad they suck and start making fucking stupid jokes with their song names. I'm glad I'm not the maintainer of this list, because I would have kicked you out of here in no time. You just have no idea how much you pissed me off. And you even had to post twice!!!! My best wishes to you. Idiot. AAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAHHHHHHHHHHHHH!!!! -- Well, I warned you... / \ |\_/| |---| | | | | _ |=-=| _ _ / \| |/ \ / \| | | ||\ | | | | | \> | | | | | \ | - - - - |) ) | / \ / \ / \ / \ / | | | | | | | | Can't you read? Or is your head too far up your ass??? I clearly stated that I DIDN'T WRITE THOSE THINGS!!! I was just fowarding a message that I found on usenet because I thought it was funny. Get a clue you fucking shirtlifter!!! -- /\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\ \ / / L. Jason Hartman "And I'll smile and I'll learn to pretend \ \ email_address_removed And I'll never be open again / / And I'll have no more dreams to defend \ \ Univ. Of Maryland, And I'll never be open again " / / Baltimore County - Kevin Moore : Dream Theater \ \ / / "Make it idiot proof and someone will make a better idiot." \ \/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:12:21 -0400 From: email_address_removed (Pat Sullivan) To: email_address_removed Message-ID: >I can just imagine the outcry from enraged >metal/hard rock fans if somebody did the same to Keith Moon and >John Bonham, for example. I see your point, but holding them up as an example (which I believe was the intent), does nothing to sully their memory. The lyrics could just as well have mentioned Tupac and Notorious B.I.G. and still made the point. >If they had chosen two people who are >still alive, Billy Corgan perhaps, at least they would be able to shoot >back if they wanted to. Well, the whole point of the lyrics in that part is how they basically both killed themselves and then became martyrs, revered by thousands or millions. If DT uses living people there, it kind of dilutes the point, dontcha think? And FWIW, I think both the folks you mentioned (Bonham and Moon) are also great examples of this type of post-mortem rock deification. (no, not defecation....:)) ----- Also, was there a jam #3014? If so, can someone send it to me, 'cause I never got it. ----- _____Pat Sullivan_____________________________________________ E-mail: email_address_removed IRC: DDictator WWW: http://www.ici.net/cust_pages/psull/psull.html NP: Drain STH - "Horror Wrestling" ______________________________________________________________ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 19:06:21 -0100 From: Markus Tenberge To: email_address_removed Subject: Japanese Version of FII Message-ID: Hi everybody! Is there anybody out there who has already bought the Japanese Version of FII (the two bonus tracks included!)? I'm really interested in the two bonus songs: what are they about, do you have already read a review, is it worth from the music standpoint to buy the Japanese Version (apart from strategic reasons like pushing the sells in your homecountry), are they edited on a second disc ... and so on! I haven't found a record store yet that offers this CD so only thing that I can do is to order it (and you know that can be a long time to wait for ... !!!). If the bonus tracks are crap I'll probably buy the "normal" version! Thanks for every comment or help! :-) Markus e-mail: markus.tenberge@ruhr-uni-bochum.de _____ ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 10:14:24 From: Adam Barnhart To: email_address_removed Subject: Wayne, New Jersey Message-ID: Well, the topic of conversation becomes suddenly obvious...And, I suppose, we're gonna see 10 'Jams a day for a while, hashing all of this out. I haven't listened to it the requisite number of times to have formed long-lasting opinions about the record, but I'll pick a couple of comments out and riff: >From: john jens > >i think im having the same reaction i had when Awake was released: im not >overwhelmed by it; it's not Images and Words (duh). i'll prolly grow to >like it, like i did w/ awake. but right now i just dont feel like there's >a Scarred or Voices on FII, ya know? a couple of the songs sound like >something straight from late 70's Rush...i keep expecting Geddy to bust in >over the keyboards. the cover and liner notes concept is kool. i've only >listened 1.25 times, but nothing bass-wise has jumped out at me...except >that i can frikn *hear* Myung. lyrics are typical DT; defly missing Moore >in that department. couple really kool guitar solos..Bombay Vindaloo-type >jams, that's kool. dig the industrialesque vocals/sounds. Myung's new presence IS a world different than it was previously. Shirely is getting mixed reviews here, for sure, but, as a bassist, I really like where the bass is on the record, tonally. There's a more pronounced lower midrange that really brings the bass out -- he's moved a little towards Geddy Lee, away from the Billy Sheehan sound some. That's the one thing I'm most excited about sonically. I don't think I'll end up liking this as much as "Images and Words"...but you get to a certain point and the greatness of an album depends almost as much on one's personal history with it than the music itself. "Falling Into Infinity" is a great album -- it's certainly going to be a very important record for a lot of us. As I said, I haven't listened enough to it to know where it'll end up, but the "Awake" neighborhood (not quite where "Images and Words" is, personally) seems a safe guess. >From: Anton Max > >Bad things: > >2) I'm not sure James' voice is suited to the organic feel I mentioned. >Doug Pinnick actually sounds less out of place in LiTS than James, to me. The combination is odd. It sounded like an amazing idea. I haven't yet decided whether it actually works or not. >3) There's a melodic element that seems to be lacking. This may be just >because I haven't totally digested the album, though. It's possible that >as the melodies become more familiar, I'll appreciate them more. I'm not sure melodies to Dream Theater songs are EVER immediately accessible. It's to the band's credit that with all the musical things that are going on that there IS a strong melody in there. The anti-"Control and Resistance," if you will. It still isn't the easiest thing to sink one's teeth into. >4) No Kevin lyrics. The Johns write good lyrics, Portnoy's are OK for the >most part I guess, but nothing on here measures up to any of Kevin's >(post-"don't look past me") stuff. I still say "Learning to Live" is the best set of lyrics in the history of the band. Moore's a good lyricist...I'm not sure Myung isn't better. Five Gratuitous CD's: ===================== 1. Dream Theater: Falling Into Infinity (!) 2. Dramarama: Cinema Verite...Plus 3. Sarah McLachlin: Surfacing 4. Rush: Hold Your Fire 5. Jethro Tull: Catfish Rising Adam Barnhart email_address_removed email_address_removed http://www.cfmc.com/adamb ------------------------------ Date: Thu, 25 Sep 1997 13:13:00 -0400 From: "Tedesco, Matthew" To: "email_address_removed" Subject: RE: YTSEJAM digest 3013 Message-ID: ]From Richard A Rivera: (Concerning Peruvian Skies): "Bottom line: it might grow on me but for now Ill be hitting SKIP." OK, so I'm thinking... huh? If you're going to give the song a chance, let it grow on you or whatever, I'd say that skipping it is probably not the most effective way to do so... But whatever works, I guess. --Yet another Matt ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 3017 **************************