YTSEJAM Digest 2850 Today's Topics: 1) Beside A Horrible Roit(BahrContent) by email_address_removed 2) Re: Bahr by email_address_removed 3) Bahr Bells by Christopher Ptacek 4) Bahr by Lars Hellsten 5) MIKE BAHR!!! by Brian Cox 6) NETCOM by Lars Hellsten 7) Re: Mike Bahr's important CD-related stuff by Gary Cleghorn 8) proof by email_address_removed (J. E. James) 9) Mike Bahr by Eric John Marlett 10) Re: In Defense of Mike Bahr by durnik 11) Re: Beside A Horrible Roit(BahrContent) by Eric Rodger 12) Dammit! by Eric John Marlett 13) Re: YTSEJAM digest 2848 by durnik ---------------------------------------------------------------------- Date: Tue, 12 Aug 1997 15:56:28 -0700 From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Subject: Beside A Horrible Roit(BahrContent) Message-ID: Hi everyone, SPOILER NDTC###SPOILER NDTC Okay, if you're new to the list you probably haven't heard of Mike Bahr. He produces bootlegs on CD. He charges about $25(and now $20, I think). Some of his CD's are better than others. But, they're pretty good for bootlegs. He doesn't run off with your money. He only asks you to be patient, while he gets your CD produced & shipped. If you don't like him posting to the jam, tough luck. People talk about stuff here that I don't like. People on here talk about a lot of stuff. Period. Usually we won't accept spam of any form, but, Mike has been part of the jam for longer than most of us. He doesn't say YNM sucks, he doesn't bash people for thinking FII is going to be good, and he has never implied that the Spice Girls were bad. He's okay in my book! If you think that he should just trade stuff, and not ask money for what he does, think about this. You have all of DT's offical releases. You want some bootlegs, but, since you don't have any you can't get any. So, what do you do? Pay some rip-off CD dealer on the internet? But, he might steal your money, or worse get your order messed up and give you a 2 disc bootleg of MM. Hmm, you could do a dub trade, right? But you'd have to wait about the year of it's return. So, what's the only other reasonable option? You go into the bathroom and cry! If you think he charges waaaay too much for a CD. Here is something to think about. Other than the actual CD stuff what else is there? Well, there's the planning(what he doesn't just throw any old "John Bon Jovi" song on there?), the throw aways(huh, it doesn't come out picture perfect everytime?), oh there's the electric bill(what you mean he doesn't still live with his parents like me?), and other stuff that I'm not thinking about now like shipping/handling, liners, gas for driving to a couple of different post offices...Stuff like that. Hmm, what else is there to say about Mike? He is the only bootlegger that DT approves of. It's not only 1/5 of the band, too. From what I understand MP doesn't represent what DT says as a band. The band as a whole looks the other way with Mike's stuff. That means JP and the rest of those sell-out bastards, too. John McCabe email_address_removed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:02:41 -0700 (MST) From: email_address_removed To: email_address_removed Cc: Multiple recipients of list Subject: Re: Bahr Message-ID: I'm not too clear on the costs of all the equipment, like the CD writer and the blank disks, but I don't have a problem with it. I think Precious Things was WELL worth the $25 I paid for it, as well as When Today and Dream Unite. They're both great bootlegs! And since Mike is the one with the connections to get these quality recordings, he is the one producing these CD's, the person putting the time to make/keep records/ship out the CD's to all his customers, he can put whatever damn price he wants on those discs! Would you sit at a computer most of the day, testing hundreds of CD's for flaws for no profit? I sure as hell wouldn't. If ya don't like the price of the bootlegs, then make your own bootlegs. I sure wouldn't wanna be in Mike's shoes though, first his equipment breaks down, now he's getting shit about his business on the jam...ick. But then again, that's just MY take on the whole shibang, ~Eckie puts PT in the spinner ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:08:45 -0500 (CDT) From: Christopher Ptacek To: email_address_removed Subject: Bahr Bells Message-ID: > Just a request for anyone to upcoming Fates shows if anyone talks to Zonder Seeing them for the first time TOMORROW! I'll ask him for ya! > From: "Adam Cook" > Subject: Bahr > Brian Wherry said: > > > Okay, so not only does Mike Bahr take music that is not his own, put in > > on CDs and sell them to ytsejammers for about ten times what they cost > > to make, he makes and sells *copies* of products made by other companies > > whose products consist CDs of music that is not *their* own. Am I > > missing something? > > Oh goody! Somebody finally has the balls to stand up and say something > against Mr. Bahr even though is a long-time veteran of this list. Thanks Well, there have been times during which I've felt that he's been very misleading. I hope Mike understands the frustration and thinks about it before he responds. > Brian. Now that I'm out of the closet as well I totally agree with you :). > I wouldn't mind if Bahr was making these cds and trading them, or even > making them and selling them at no profit. That would be the cost of the > CDR at maximum $7 or $8, but I don't see where the fuck he gets up to $25 > and has the nerve to tell us he's barely making a profit. I guess he's not > a very good business man. Okay... there are a few issues to take into account. Some of Bahr's source is NOT cheap. Some of it is readily available on other boots, but some of it is just plain expensive stuff. If you pay $300 for your source, $7 per disc, $2-3 for inserts and jewel boxes (which don't cost $2, Vince :) and then pay for shipping, it can get a bit hairy. Still... he's making enough to afford an apartment or a house on, and I know I don't make that much on my music... I'm sure someone's going to resent that. The Equinox post really pissed me off, but I have always really trusted Mike, and he's always been a nice guy... I have never had a reason to get on his case. > Even MORE appalling is the fact that he's copying OTHER bootlegs and making > a huge profit! I think the greatest thing about bootleg cds is fucking over whoever sold you your copy, buy making and trading your own versions of the product. I personally think that bootlegs should be a tradable comodity, but not a profitable one. I don't think anyone should be able to make a living off my music, unless they're part of my organization or record company, etc. I find that to be unethical. Bootlegs, however are free promotion for a band. They do help people to get into your music... but I don't think people should be paying more than cost for em. When someone charges $25-50 for a bootleg video... that's just not cool. Portnoy himself digs bootlegs... but I bet he feels the same. TRADE bootlegs... even seel them for what they cost you to make. But once you start making a profit off them, in my opinion, you've crossed the line. > Well, Mike Bahr is not the only one that does this. And a lot of > people think that his work is worth the money. In this case they pay him > the money for the service. Capitalism works very simply. There's no question that most of his boots are worth the money... Awake and Images and Words are worth hundreds of dollars to me. But I don't have to pay hundreds for them... that would be too exorbitant a fee. > From: "Vincent G. LuPone" > Cc: email_address_removed > You just hit the key word. Ytsejammers. We're a family of sorts here. My family doesn't sell me stuff. They give it to me, or in rare cases, we trade for it. That's how family works. If you're selling for a profit, you're not so much looking out for your family as you are for yourself. I don't think Bahr's making enough of a profit off his business to really call it harmful or even wrong... but all businesses start out slow. The more cds you make, the less they end up costing your a piece. Bahr is dropping his prices as his overhead decreases, so hopefully he won't turn into a KTS type thing. > He's a bootlegger. What's the problem? If you don't like bootlegs, > especially ones that the actual musicians say is okay, don't buy them. I specifically asked this of Portnoy on the interview. I think someone beat me to it, because it came out in different words. Anyways, he said that he like bootlegs of all sorts, but the rest of the band does not approve of them, if I remember correctly. So it's not "the musicians" saying it's okay. > profit off of each CD. If you can do it better for less, then do it. If > not, go fuck yourself and get off Mike's back. He's doing us all a great That's a good argument. I think you really persuaded Adam and Brian to go jerk off in the corner, listening to Scenes from a Memory. > >If somebody could explain the morals to me here or if any of my math is > >incorrect I'd be glad to re-think my conclusion.... What needs to happen, is someone has to come by and reproduce all of Bahrs better material on cds for less money. He's got almost a monopoly here. No one else markets bootlegs to this list. If someone would compete with him or even reproduce the exact same material, things would balance out as they should. Chris Ptacek at EnterAct, L.L.C -- (773) 248 8511 http://www.enteract.com (business) http://www.prognosis.com/madsman/ (my contribution to --------------------------------- the vast wealth of "To err is human... to suck out | underdeveloped one's brain with an orally | web sites) deployed flesh tube is not."-MS| **************** --------------------------------- ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:15:02 -0400 From: Lars Hellsten To: email_address_removed Subject: Bahr Message-ID: >Even MORE appalling is the fact that he's copying OTHER bootlegs and making >a huge profit! CDR discs can be bought for around $5 these days and he's >selling these copies for $20. Let's see...he has to open his cd case and >put it in the drive, put in the CDR disc , wait a few minutes, put the disc And didn't he recently say he was now doing this for a living? (Somtehing to the effect of "I don't have any intention of getting a real job"...) Anyway, $5 is expensive for a CDR disc these days - I can get them for $4.50 Canadian, individually. And if I were to buy over 1000 of them bulk, I'm sure I could get them for under $3.00 apiece. If you set aside $2 (generuos) from each CD for the cost of the burner and misc hardware, it would pay for itself after half a print run. An the leftovers as well as what's made from future print runs could go towards misc expenses such as lost CD's and whatnot. Factor in another $4-5 per CD for shipping, packaging, etc. and he's still gota be making at least $15 profit per CD. If he's not making at least that, then he's doing a poor job at running his operation. 3000 CD's a year, and that's $45k profit... I dunno... that's one of the reasons I don't buy his CDs anymore - not only can I not afford the $35-40 CDN the cost amounts to, but I certainly can't afford to line the pockets of someone who just sits around all day changing CDs. Granted, I'd buy Mike's CD's in a heartbeat before I'd even think of buying bootlegs by anyone else, but it still doesn't seem right that he's making such a big profit off something a 10 year old could do. ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:29:38 -0500 (CDT) From: Brian Cox To: email_address_removed Subject: MIKE BAHR!!! Message-ID: well i am a veteran of this list for over 4 years now..some of you may remember me from the tape tree of the birch hill 12/95 show. i dont post anymore, and rarely read the digests, but i skimmed over one today complaining about mike bahr and i read it. i went to go check out his cd page and saw the "ad" for the darkest of winters cd. this cd contains material that i personally taped. mike bahr sent blank DATs to me and i copied the shows for him *at no cost to him*, because he wanted the 4 shows. now that he is putting them out on cd and profiting off my tapes i am quite pissed. i have never said anything publicly about him in the past, but now i feel i must. from the beginning he has been charging inflated prices for illegal cd's (they are illegal mike, why do you think 800,000 cds were confiscated last month in orlando?) mike even told me when i stayed with him back in '95 that he bought a new truck off all the money he made from the cd's. i just wanted to let everyone know that i had nothing to do with this cd being put out, and i didnt even know about it until today. since the band is aware that i taped these shows (i sent DATs to portnoy) i feel that i must protect myself by informing dt's management about this project and letting them know that i had no part in it. for the new tour i am going to do everythign possible to get high quality copies of shows to everyone for free. dont support mike's illegal activities. 90% of the material on the darkest of winters cd is from my DATs. i will let anyone copy the entire shows onto CD-R for free. mike, this is pretty low. the least you could have done is told me about this.. .disgusted. <><><><><><><><><> Brian V. Cox (email_address_removed) <><><><><><><><><> <>rush\dreamtheater\kingcrimson\phish\moe.\toriamos\echolyn\queensryche> "The man or woman who is insensitive to the spell of this performance really isn't fit to live in civilized society for it is one of the wonders of the world" -Frank Granville Barker <><><><><><><><><>DAT Taper/Trader - Email me for list<><><><><><><><><> <><><><><><><><><><> http://www.metronet.com/~lerxst <><><><><><><><><><> ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:29:32 -0400 From: Lars Hellsten To: email_address_removed Subject: NETCOM Message-ID: > Well, I've just sent an e-mail to Netcom. Let's see if they are >more interested in the money or in having users of high intelectual level >(it is a pitty that money doesn't show anything about the person that is I too sent an e-mail to Netcom when I first saw his message. But now I feel like a complete idiot (I don't get the Jam in ACK mode, so I don't get full headers, and didn't stop to think about the fact the addrses may have been forged). This Dr.D guy is NOT Justin. He's impostering him ... I guess it's the same wee.wee loser. (Did you notice he said "please don't shut down the netcom account"?) I don't mean to continue this on the Jam, since it's really something that should be dealt with in private with Skadz and this guy's postmaster, but DO NOT COMPLAIN TO NETCOM! Mark Bredius wrote: > I'm sure some people will be interested in this. Someone on the > Marillion mailinglist started a fund, to help pay for a US tour. > Every donor of $25 and over will get a *free* limited edition CD > recorded during the US tour. Only 1000 copies will be made, and > there are still some left (about 100-200, I think). Marillion's > record company recently went chapter 11, and *now* the Tour Fund 3 perfectly justified messages in a row? Someone needs to get a fucking life. :) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 22:18:49 +0100 From: Gary Cleghorn To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Mike Bahr's important CD-related stuff Message-ID: In article , Brian Wherry writes > >Mike Bahr wrote: >> >> This price cut makes Prism Records order prices standard across >> the board, whether it's for one of my custom releases or one of the >> Italian boot replicas. > >Okay, so not only does Mike Bahr take music that is not his own, put in >on CDs and sell them to ytsejammers for about ten times what they cost >to make, he makes and sells *copies* of products made by other companies >whose products consist CDs of music that is not *their* own. Am I >missing something? You haven't been here very long have you? If it Mike hadn't taken the time (no pun intended) to make the various cd's i would never have heard many of the rare tracks and one offs. Unlike you, i and many others have no interest in swaping tapes so Mike's cd's provide a service to the non-trader by putting everything on one(or two) cd's. I have never met Mike , but from all of his posts i can honestly say he comes across as very honest and sincere (and i have no reason to think otherwise). I have no problem buying a cd from Mike or the reason he makes them because i know he does it as a hobby and not as a full time job. You have your opinion and i have mine. p.s Mike , how about a photo for the gallery? Gary Cleghorn Ytsejam Photo Gallery at http://www.tequila.demon.co.uk/ ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 16:36:46 -0500 (CDT) From: email_address_removed (J. E. James) To: email_address_removed Subject: proof Message-ID: Dear Jammers, I can prove that I am not Dr. D. Look at the email address at the top of all my messages, at the header or whatever its called, they say: ]From: email_address_removed (J. E. James) but if you look at the ones where Dr D is impersonating me, they say: ]From: email_address_removed (Justin James) see the difference? this is because although I am the one that uses the internet at my house, my dad pays for it, so his name is there, not mine. Now can somebody tell me how it is possible to catch this Dr. D guy and prosecute him, if what he is doing is indeed illegal? Lord Mutilo email_address_removed ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:43:23 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric John Marlett To: email_address_removed Subject: Mike Bahr Message-ID: > 12) Mike Bahr's important CD-related stuff > by Brian Wherry [huge rambling about a personal dislike of Mike's post deleted] You know, there are hundreds of people on this list who think Mike's projects are excellent collectible items and invest in them accordingly, but even if you don't feel that way, does it really bother you that much that he updates this list? You don't have to read everything....I don't. Just take what you want from the list and let others do the same. Mike, thanks for the update. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:45:24 -0700 (MST) From: durnik To: email_address_removed (Vincent G. LuPone) Cc: email_address_removed, email_address_removed Subject: Re: In Defense of Mike Bahr Message-ID: Wow, another reply... > is Vince LuPone >> is Brian Wherry > >> Okay, so not only does Mike Bahr take music that is not his own, put in > >> on CDs and sell them to ytsejammers > > You just hit the key word. Ytsejammers. We're a family of sorts here. > Bahr has a link to the band (that even GIVES him material!!), approval from > the members of the band, and his boots are all rare stuff and high quality. > He's giving some of us on the outer circle some of the stuff only > available on the inner circle. It's cool. Shhhh! Quiet!! :) Can't let them know we know they know that we know. You know? :) > My guess is that he's buying excellent CDs for the CDR. There are some > really cheap CDs out there, ones with only one thin gold layer, but Bahr's > CDs are double-layered so that they're stronger and they last longer. Plus Well, plus the cost of the equipment to make the CDs with. Plus, it takes an entire day's work to create the master on the hard drive, plus the cost of obtaining music (I paid $700 for the digital masters for Critical Mass, and I'm paying $400 for E2E) and so forth. And yes, you're quite right Vince, I eschew the generic CDRs becuase they fail too often. > service, and I thank him for that. Besides, most bootleg CDs out there are > $20-$40 anyway, so what's your problem? Oh yeah, thats a salient point I forgot to mention. I'm at or lower than the market standard, so I guess all is well. > >Even MORE appalling is the fact that he's copying OTHER bootlegs and making > >a huge profit! > > Compiliations rule. Sometimes there are parts of bootlegs that are > superior to others. I see no fault in compiling the best of several > bootlegs into one great CD. I think it's great. Well, I think he meant my CD replicas of foreign boots. I am starting those becuase the originals are getting hard to find, and lots of people ask me if I offer them. So I figured I would. > CDR discs can be bought for around $5 these days and he's > >selling these copies for $20. Let's see...he has to open his cd case and > >put it in the drive, put in the CDR disc , wait a few minutes, put the disc > >in the mailbox....instant $10-$15 profit. And that drive costed how much? And the computer it's attached to costed how much? And it's costing me how much to stay home and do this all day, compared to working out of the house? Etc. > On a related note...Mike, my check for $45 for the Megadeth CD and the two > Savatage (YEAH!) videos will be in the mail VERY soon. Cool!! Thanks man. - Mike Bahr - email_address_removed - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:49:57 -0400 From: Eric Rodger To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: Beside A Horrible Roit(BahrContent) Message-ID: John McCabe wrote: > >If you think that he should just trade stuff, and not ask money for what >he does, think about this. You have all of DT's offical releases. You >want some bootlegs, but, since you don't have any you can't get any. So, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >what do you do? Pay some rip-off CD dealer on the internet? But, he >might steal your money, or worse get your order messed up and give you a >2 disc bootleg of MM. Hmm, you could do a dub trade, right? But you'd >have to wait about the year of it's return. So, what's the only other >reasonable option? You go into the bathroom and cry! I'm certainly not against bootlegging, or collecting bootlegs, but this is one of the worst arguments I've heard, short of "I don't see you putting out a better album." Most of us veterans started our DT bootleg collections by trading for blanks, not paying some rip-off dealer or crying in the bathroom. Also, I never paid more than $20 for a single disc boot from a dealer (doubles were always $40), so the fact that Mike's prices have come down from $25 to $20, still only puts his discs at the same price as most Imported bootlegs. So your arguments here aren't really relevant. And again, I'm not trying to come down on what Mike's doing (if it really bothered me, I would have spoken up 3 years ago when he first proposed the idea), but I'm having a blast disputing these unsound arguments. KAI (still trying to figure out how I can get rich quick by bootlegging Bahr's bootlegs) ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 17:51:47 -0400 (EDT) From: Eric John Marlett To: email_address_removed Subject: Dammit! Message-ID: Ok, this is just pissing me off. As an always satisfied Mike Bahr customer, I have to come to the guy's defense. First of all, how can his projects hurt the band? The people who buy his CD's are the same people who have every official release and who go to DT concerts whenever they can. These are the die-hard fans, so it's not like they're spending money that would otherwise go to DT. They've already done that. And my main point.... > making them and selling them at no profit. That would be the cost of the > CDR at maximum $7 or $8, but I don't see where the fuck he gets up to > $25 and has the nerve to tell us he's barely making a profit. I guess > he's not a very good business man. > Even MORE appalling is the fact that he's copying OTHER bootlegs and > making a huge profit! CDR discs can be bought for around $5 these days > and he's selling these copies for $20. Let's see...he has to open his cd > case and put it in the drive, put in the CDR disc , wait a few minutes, > put the disc in the mailbox....instant $10-$15 profit. I don't where you're getting your info, but every CD Bahr produces is not CDR. He creates commercial grade CD's identical to the ones you buy in a store. He sends them away to a CD printing plant, and he gets artwork pressed onto the CD, then there's the liner notes. All that ain't cheap.....Don't criticize things you know little about. Eric ------------------------------ Date: Mon, 11 Aug 1997 14:57:22 -0700 (MST) From: durnik To: email_address_removed Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 2848 Message-ID: > Brian Wherry said: > > > Okay, so not only does Mike Bahr take music that is not his own, put in > > on CDs and sell them to ytsejammers for about ten times what they cost > > to make, he makes and sells *copies* of products made by other companies > > whose products consist CDs of music that is not *their* own. Am I > > missing something? > > Oh goody! Somebody finally has the balls to stand up and say something > against Mr. Bahr even though is a long-time veteran of this list. Thanks Why would it take "balls" to say something against me? Am I some kind of internet bully? Like I'm gonna give you a swirly or a wedgie when I find out you posted out against me? :) Actually, that's kinda funny. > Brian. Now that I'm out of the closet as well I totally agree with you :). > I wouldn't mind if Bahr was making these cds and trading them, or even > making them and selling them at no profit. That would be the cost of the > CDR at maximum $7 or $8, but I don't see where the fuck he gets up to $25 > and has the nerve to tell us he's barely making a profit. I guess he's not > a very good business man. Well, I don't just paint the music onto the blank media. It takes powerful computer systems to reliably produce these products. I would go more into detail here, but the version of this post that did go into detail got rejected by the Jam due to length! :) Plus you're forgetting the liners, jewels, packing, shipping, electricity (trust me, you know you're using your electronic stuff too much when you get an electric bill of $170 a month for an apartment... and you don't run the A/C much). I make personally about the same as I would working a part time job. I also work part time with Equinox. Put the two together, and the rent is paid. Presto! :) (Hey, you got your chocolate in my peanut butter! Hey, you got your peanut butter in my chocolate! Hey, say, this is pretty good) > Even MORE appalling is the fact that he's copying OTHER bootlegs and making > a huge profit! CDR discs can be bought for around $5 these days and he's Well, people asked for them, so I provide them. Etc. And oh yes, you might want to know that CDR discs often _fail_. > If somebody could explain the morals to me here or if any of my math is > incorrect I'd be glad to re-think my conclusion.... If you have moral problems with bootlegging, talk to a priest. I don't, and I made that decision long ago, so I literally would not be able to grasp your angst in this situation. Rogerio Brito writes... > Well, Mike Bahr is not the only one that does this. And a lot of > people think that his work is worth the money. In this case they pay him > the money for the service. Capitalism works very simply. Thanks for the backup, Rogerio. And he's right. If nobody wanted what I was selling, it wouldn't sell. - Mike Bahr - email_address_removed - http://www.goodnet.com/~durnik ------------------------------ End of YTSEJAM Digest 2850 **************************