YTSEJAM Digest 814

Today's Topics:

  1) Cacophony (non-DT)
 by Brian M Polka <email_address_removed>
  2) My Subconscious
 by email_address_removed (Bracken Odiorne)
  3) ROSS666/Jeremy (LONG!!!!!!!!!!!)
 by email_address_removed
  4) Caught in a Web??
 by Krysten DeBroka <email_address_removed>
  5) Subconscious
 by Bill Nottingham <email_address_removed>
  6) Re: YTSEJAM digest 812
 by "Mark A. Parker" <email_address_removed>
  7) Re: ROSS666/Jeremy (LONG!!!!!!!!!!!)
 by email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh)
  8) More 6:00 bass
 by Jeremy Longley <email_address_removed.ac.uk>
  9) Re: Subconscious
 by Michael Bahr <email_address_removed>
 10) A Dream Set for Dream Theater
 by Aviad Shkolnikov <email_address_removed.ac.il>
 11) Moore Dub Site
 by Bean <email_address_removed.ac.uk>
 12) 7 string in Scarred?
 by "Brian          J.        Wherry" <WB81%email_address_removed>

----------------------------------------------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 19:57:18 -0500 (CDT)
From: Brian M Polka <email_address_removed>
To: Ytsejam Newsletter <email_address_removed>
Subject: Cacophony (non-DT)
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>

Hey everyone,

     Sorry about the non-DT content but I thought this might intrest a 
few of you on the list. I got a letter from Marty Friedman today 
concerning Cacophony and Jason Becker. I know that there a quite afew 
people on the list who were/are into the band so I thought I'd post the 
letter. Also, I know there is a guy on here who has a actual Cacophony 
WWW page but I can't remember his name. He might be interested in putting 
this on his page so he has my permission to do so. Anyway, here it is

(BTW, I corrected aa few typographical errors... Marty can rock, but he's 
not a great typist :-)) 

******************************************************************************

Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 16:13:29 -0700
To: Brian M Polka <email_address_removed>
Subject: Re: Cacophony Questions...

Hi Brian,
        In Cacophony, I used for the most part my Jackson Kelley (the same
one that I use now as my live back-up) a Carvin V220 and a Les Paul for
rhythm. Sometimes I would use Jason's Hurricane (the blue one) which was
great. Jason used the Hurricane and a Carvin strat shape (the Go Off cover
one). Our music was so busy, we didn't want too much effects muddying things
up. I used a Boss super overdrive and Jason used a Ibanez tube screamer.
        We had a good rappore as soon as we met; you are right, it's rare to
find 2 guitarist who are so willing to put egos down and really work
together.
        I do keep in touch with him, and he will recover from his terrible
disease if you join me in praying for him. Also he has a new solo Lp coming
out (I don't know when, but it's done) that will blow your mind. Thanx alot
for writing... MF





------------------------------

Date: Sat, 6 May 1995 20:17:55 -0600 (MDT)
From: email_address_removed (Bracken Odiorne)
To: email_address_removed
Subject: My Subconscious
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>

Hey everyone,
	There's been a request for a detailed post concerning every song 
on the Subconscious.  Well, I'm not sure I'm up to the task, but I'll 
start by saying that I LOVE THIS FUCKIN' DISK!  Mike Bahr can have three 
organs of his choice from me provided he does not take my right tecticle 
(I'm right handed, and so is my wife) <g>.  The only song that I have 
trouble with is O Holy Night, and before you Christian Ytsejammers flame 
me it is because of CD's wailing, I am down with the King myself.  I just 
can't wait for "When Dream and James Unite"!  I think that CD does a superb 
job on Carry That Weight, however.  It could be because I got into DT with 
Images & Words that I actively dislike CD's vocal style (I think he's a Geddy 
Lee clone, and not a very good one at that)(I love the MUSIC on WDADU, by the 
way).  What can I say about the rest?  Wow!  I can even deal with the 
innane pratter of a DT fan in the background of the Back Pain Jam.  I am 
just too impressed with this disk.  Well, here goes, song by song:

1. Vigil  This is very cool.  I think it's my fav on the album, but then 
I just dig instrumentals too the extreme.
2. ACOS   Just, WOW!
3. Oh Holy Night  The musicianship is superb, but CD just had to go.
4. Carry That Weight  I only like the beatles when other people do their 
music.  This is one of the best tunes on the album!
5. Past  I love it, but it's outsined by the first two songs.
6. Wanted Dead or Alive  I still haven't recovered from the number of 
times this song was played in the 80's.  Ugh!  The parody is too funny.
7. Live  JP is God (since it would be blasphemous to still call Stevie 
Ray Vaughnn God for obvious reasons).  I suppose this is blasphemy 
overall, but what the hell.  JC has gotta love DT.
8. Session  Ditto, but without all of the religious stuff.
9. Mission: Impossible  My wife and I both cheered for this one.  They 
should bring back the series just so DT can officially record this.
10. Back Pain Jam  The guy in the audience is annoying, but the band 
(sans MP) sounds great.  (If the guy in the audience is on the Ytsejam, 
no offense, but shut up!)<g>
11. Again, I am biased because I just love instrumentals.
12. Experimental  JP even sounds great when he's noodling.  When I noodle 
even I want to turn off my amp!
13. Tears  Who originally did this?  Forgive my ignorance.  If ... Lee 
turns out to be Geddy Lee, well, it's not my fault.  I was seduced by the 
eighties away from good music for a while and I have some Rush catching 
up to do.  Forgive me.  Cool tune.
14. Winter  To tell the truth, Tori does it much better, but a nice try 
James.  Next time try stepping off of your balls.  (Ouch!  That was 
vulger and not very nice.  I need more P.C. classes)  I still like the 
song.
15.  What can I say.  I love this.  It won me a free copy of Mike Bahr's 
Cygnus project.  Whoo hoo!  Plus I'm addicted to the game!

Well, sorry about the length of the post and the brevity of my song 
reviews.  I must say that the disk was definately worth the wait.  It 
made me laugh, it made me cry, and I think it was definately worth 
kissing 25 clams goodbye!  

Tchus,
Bracken
"...Without Music, life would be an error."
Nietzsche -Twilight of the Idols-


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 00:07:59 -0400
From: email_address_removed
To: email_address_removed
Subject: ROSS666/Jeremy (LONG!!!!!!!!!!!)
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>

Hi Steve and fellow YJammers,

This will be my last public posting about this issue, mostly because I doubt
that everyone on YJ really wants to read all this.  I know how much I hate
excessively long digests. :)  Besides, by continuing to post about "ROSS666"
publicly on YJ, I am giving him what I consider unwarranted & undeserved
attention, whether it's being viewed as positive or negative by the readers
of this list.  I would respectfully ask that if anyone here, including Steve,
wants to continue this discussion w/me from now on to please respond via
e-mail from this time forward.  I would really appreciate your cooperation.
 Thanks. :)

This is going to be a VERY LONG POST, so skip it if you don't feel like
reading it!!!!!!!!!!

>>>This is going to be long, and something tells me this post is going to
piss a lot of people off instead of clarify my views, but oh well.<<<

On the contrary, I think I understand how you feel & you have clarified your
views very well.  I just feel differently. :)  I guess there is really no way
to rectify the two, so we will just have to "agree to disagree" on this
particular matter.  But I did want to respond to your last post, regardless
of whether we can come to an agreement or not.

>>>My only alibi in these situations is that, no, I was not directly affected
by either of these people, thus I don't have the whole story.<<<

If you have a copy of Kev's demos yourself, you ARE being directly affected
by someone selling them.

([BLATANT PLUG!]  If you don't have them, contact the dub site nearest you!
;)

>>>Perhaps I shouldn't have even commented, but I really do get enraged when
people exercise their ability to shorten other's freedoms or rights.<<<

So do I.  However, I have not shortened anyone's rights here.  They did that
themselves.  For the person/persons who posted Jeremy's phone number, well, I
had no control over that & I disagree w/that particular action against him,
regardless of what he did.  Did posting his phone number do anything to
change the situation anyway?  If people did try to call him, yet never
managed to actually talk to him, did posting his phone number make any
difference? (This are rhetorical questions, no one really needs to answer
these. :)

>>>I can only imagine how many e-mails flew around the system after that
first post about Jeremy - NONE of which I was a part of. So I can honestly
say that my opinion was not needed.<<<

Don't ever think your opinion is not needed.  Of course it is.  Your opinion
gave me a chance to clarify my thoughts as well.  Just because Jeremy didn't
screw you out of anything doesn't mean you don't have the right to say
something about what happened.  Input is good, input is good! :)  It makes
people think.

>>>[P.O. Box vs home address]  Not to me. You gave his name, the city he
lives in, and the state. True, a post office box gives nothing, but what you
did provide gives me his home address, where he works, and his home phone
number.  It's called resources<<<

Where he works?  Where are you able to get that information from? (Selling
bootlegs is not his livelihood, BTW, according to the info I have about him.)
 At any rate, "ROSS666," aka Andrew Munves, is listed in the America On-Line
member directory.  Do you know what that is?  It is a _voluntary_ registry
system at AOL where you can tell a little bit about yourself - your name,
occupation, hobbies, what kind of computer you use, etc.  I'm listed there
myself. :)  And guess what?  So is Andrew Munves.  He HIMSELF lists the
information that I posted to YJ (name/city/state) right there in his member
profile, minus the actual P.O. Box number (which, by your own admission,
"gives nothing").  This member directory is accessible by _anyone_ who has
AOL, and millions of people do.  Andrew doesn't seem to mind if his name &
address are posted in an easily accessible place or he wouldn't have bothered
to write up a profile of himself that AOL users could read.  If anyone wanted
to find out the information about Andrew you mentioned above (home address,
phone number, etc.), they could do so just as easily from his own VERY public
posting to AOL's member directory as from what I posted on YJ.

>>>I can guarantee you that if I were screwed in the manner you say some
people were for purchasing the demos instead of trading them, this person
would be hearing from me personally and the issue would probably be
resolved.<<<

I never said that anyone WAS screwed from purchasing demos from Andrew.  As
far as I know, I could have been the first person he'd ever written to about
selling them & I don't personally know of anyone who HAS purchased the demos
from him as of now.  I _was_ able to contact Andrew personally, & hopefully,
I was also able to resolve the entire issue before it ever became a problem
for anyone.

>>>1. So he forwarded you his address at random? How did he even find you?<<<

He could have easily found my address through the AOL member directory, which
I mentioned above.  I specifically list in my profile that I like DT's music
which is more than enough reason for him to make the decision to send me his
list.  People do this all the time, actually; I get trading lists from other
AOL members I don't know on a regular basis simply because they looked up
other DT fans (or Tori Amos fans, or Kate Bush fans, etc.) through the
directory, my screen name & profile popped up, they thought I might be
interested, so they sent me their lists.  This is the _first_ time, however,
I've ever gotten a list of items for SALE.  AOL makes it very clear how
illegal this is & you can lose your account over doing it.

>>>2. I give my home address to a lot of people. For example, the people on
this list whom I have traded with in the past.<<<

So do I.  ("Hi" to all the dub sites out there. :)

>>>But if they put it up on this list for ANY reason without checking with
me, it would piss me off because it is an infringement on the rights of the
individual to hold private information as private in any cases beneath direct
government interrogation.<<<

It may piss you off, but legally, there is nothing you can do about it.  How
do you think people's names get on junk mail mailing lists?  Once your
address has been _voluntarily_ given to another party, regardless of whether
you know them or not, that information is now in "public domain," unless you
stated from the outset IN WRITING that you did not wish the information to be
made public.  Andrew voluntarily gave out his address to someone he did not
know & in doing so, forfeited his right to privacy.  And, again, of course,
as I mentioned earlier in this note, the information was easily accessible
through the AOL member directory anyway.

>>>3. "Copywrighted?" What's that? You know, a certain person on this list
who you all know and love sold me a "copywrighted" piece of material for $25.
I'm pretty sure that he actually kept that $25 for himself, since the item
was in his possession and was acquired via United States currency. He did not
mail this $25 to the owner of the copywright, in fact he told me what he
spent the money on.<<<

I would assume that you are referring to Mike "Fuck Yeah" Bahr's
_Subconscious_ project? :)  This has nothing to do with what we are currently
discussing & if you have a problem with it, I suggest you take it up with
Mike Bahr, DT themselves, or DT's management or record label. (Apparently,
you DON'T or you wouldn't have bought a copy yourself. :)  In my particular
case, with Kevin's demos, I have WRITTEN PERMISSION from him to distribute
his copywritten material to anyone who would like to hear it as long as it is
not done for profit.  If you would like to see this statement from Kevin for
yourself, I would be more than glad to make a photocopy of it & send it to
you. :)

For what it's worth, when I walked up to Mike Portnoy at the December 9th DT
show in Los Angeles at the Palace last year, the first thing he asked me was,
"so is this _When Dream & James Unite_ thing ever going to happen??  I want a
copy!!  Will you make sure that I get one??"  Later, our beloved Dr. Mosh
also talked to Mike about this project, as did other YJammers that night, &
Mike continually expressed enthusiasm for it.  To me, this is a statement
implying approval for that particular project from a band member.  If Mike
doesn't mind what Mike Bahr is doing, I don't think anyone else should
either. :)  (And I'm am currently greatly looking forward to getting my copy
of the _Subconscious_ CD also. :)

>>>Another person on this list whom you all know and love even more sold me
FIVE pieces of "copywrighted" material, and has yet to mail them to me. He
will, because I asked him to wait until he mailed something else, since we
both knew it would take some time. What happens when I receive these illegal
items? Am I guilty because I purchased them from him? Are the two anonymous
people listed above both guilty? Would you like me to put their names up on
this list?<<<

Well, I already put up _one_ of those names, probably. :)  Somehow, I don't
think he'll mind. ;)  As I said before, this particular issue doesn't have
anything to do with our discussion of Kevin's demos because what I have done
in that regard is totally _legal_; I have the permission of the owner of the
copyright in writing to distribute the material in question in a non-profit
manner.  But, technically, yes, buying those items you mentioned above IS
illegal, as is selling them, but I truly doubt that anyone's going to come to
your house, or anyone else's for that matter, & confiscate the items in
question.  The music industry is far more concerned with piracy than
bootlegging these days, especially with many groups now allowing "tapers
sections" at their shows.  I'm not here to talk about whether bootlegs are
good or bad; that's a winless argument, IMO, and it's doubtful that the two
opposing sides will ever come to any sort of agreement as to whether it's
right or wrong, much like the abortion issue.  But what you may not know is
that when Mike Portnoy gave his verbal "approval" of the _WD&JU_ CD project,
he was in essence forfeiting his copyright priviledges regarding the material
involved.  If, as a songwriter, you do not defend your copyright, you can
_lose_ it (or have it taken away from you, rather) & approving of bootlegs
(as we all know Mike P does) is a pretty easy way to do that.  Of course,
that being said, if DT's management and/or record company decided to sue Mike
Bahr tomorrow for manufacturing & selling the _Subconscious_ CD, they could
probably do so & win, regardless of whether he had the verbal approval of a
band member or not because, well, life just isn't fair. :)  But I did want to
make that point; it's not as cut & dried an issue as a lot of people seem to
think.  

>>>4. If I own a Van Halen album, purchased as a cd for $15, I can sell it to
anyone I want for any amount of money I want. I have not copied this
material, nor am I breaching "copywrighted music" by re-recording the cd and
saying it's my work (like no one would notice it's Van Halen). The item was
purchased with United States currency, in the United States, therefore is now
legally my plastic cd-case, complete with a cd, which is also now mine.
Anyone who wants to take it from me can either steal it or issue a warrant
for its possession to claim it from me via the government.  That'd be one
hell of a court case. Otherwise, I can sell this cd for as much or as little
money as I want. Heck, I can GIVE it away if I want to.  Copywright
infringement is in reproduction of media only.<<<

Again, this has nothing to do with me, but I'd be more than glad to comment
on it! :)  I know you were trying to make a point, but what you just said was
completely incorrect.  Haven't you ever heard of publishing rights &
royalties?  If you were to release an album of your own covers of Van Halen
songs (maybe this could be Mike Bahr's next project! :) & sold this CD for a
profit without paying royalties to Van Halen, you would find yourself
involved in one hell of a lawsuit, which you would most certainly lose. :)
 What you would be charged with is "theft of intellectual property."

There have been several instances in the news over the past year regarding
the ownership of intellectual property, many of them specifically involving
the legality of the issue of used CDs.  One of the most famous incidents was
when Garth Brooks boycotted The Wherehouse music store chain for selling used
CDs.  He claimed they were violating his "intellectual property" rights.  The
question has always been, does owning a CD also transfer ownership of the
material on the CD?  The courts have ruled that the answer is "no."  What it
comes down to is, you can own a piece of plastic in a jewel case, but your
$14.99 doesn't buy you one shred of ownership of the material contained on
that disc.  You own the disc, you DON'T own the _music_ on that disc.
 Intellectual property (music) is not the same as "real" property (the disc,
booklet & jewel case).  Once you sell a piece of "real" property, like a
house or a car, for instance, you are no longer in physical possession of
that property.  With "intellectual" property, this is not always the case,
because an idea (ie. music) is not something you can hold in your hand.
 Therefore, the courts have interpreted the consumer's ownership of
intellectual property by the "one owner/one user" rule.  At any given time,
there can only be one copy of the property useable by the one person who owns
it.  In a direct way, this allows for home taping (ie. making a tape of a CD
to play in your car), but does not allow you to buy a CD & then tape a copy
of that CD for a friend.  Indirectly, this rule also covers selling used CDs,
which is totally _legal_, provided that you haven't made yourself a taped
copy of that CD to keep.  So basically, copyright infringement occurs in both
reproduction of media AND in the use of the intellectual material contained
in that media.

Whew! :)
 
>>>I'm glad he apologized, but something tells me you are not the only one
who has e-mailed Ross about his list.<<<

What makes you think that?  Are you referring to someone "independently"
e-mailing him after he also sent _them_ his list or someone e-mailing him
specifically because of my disapproval of him selling the demos? If anyone
else has e-mailed him regarding the selling of the demos, I haven't heard
about it & I haven't encouraged anyone to e-mail him privately IRT to the
matter either.

>>>Your post made it to Prodigy, so I automatically assume Ross has more
enemies over there as well.<<<

"Enemies" is a rather strong word.  I certainly don't consider him my
"enemy."  I hope you are not saying that there is something wrong with people
not liking what he's doing.

Although I haven't mentioned this before, Andrew is also selling video
bootlegs, one of which I taped myself, w/my own camcorder, and he's charging
$20 for it.  I've never charged anyone for a copy of that tape & never
_would_ because I just don't do that.  Although him selling this bootleg
upsets me, I've traded that video with a lot of DT fans & I know that once
bootlegs are out there, they're _out there_, and it's impossible to stop
someone from selling them.  What I'm saying is, I have a _lot_ more ammo
against Andrew than I've actually used, and if this was about making an enemy
& not simply about defending Kevin's rights, I could have been much nastier
about it than I have been. 

Anyway, a friend of mine (hi Jaime) posted the note to Prodigy for me & I'm
sure she will also post that Andrew apologized to me, if she hasn't already.
 I still don't know where you're getting the idea that I encouraged everyone
to be hostile towards Andrew, I asked them to avoid him at all costs!!
 Andrew apologized, said he would take the demos off of his list, and then I
told everyone here on YJ about his respectful response to my request.  I just
don't see the problem here! :)

>>>If he changes his policies at all, it will be because of the tsunami of
e-mails your posts caused(not that that's a bad thing, considering the
overall immorality of what he was doing).<<<

If we were politicians, I might accuse you of waffling in that last statement
<G>, but as far as I know, Andrew hasn't been assaulted w/e-mail over this.
 Where are you getting this idea?  I think people would have told me if they
had mail-bombed him & then I would have told _them_ that that was totally
unnecessary.

>>>As far as I can tell, were he to make many many copies and then sell them,
it would be illegal. Selling his one and only Kevin Moore demo to someone
else would not be illegal.<<<

No, you are incorrect here, selling ANY copy of it would be illegal.  This
would be against the copyright holder's wishes, and therefore, in violation
of his rights.  The only person who can legally sell a copy of Kev's demos
is, umm, Kevin himself. :)

>>>Furthermore, if you are working from a copy only, is it illegal?<<<

No, as long as you're not selling it! :)  We're not talking about copyright
law directly here, we're talking about a written directive from the copyright
_holder_.  That's all it is, an agreement between the copyright holder &
those who are carrying out his wishes.  The people who sell his demos are
ignoring the request that he asked be carried out, and therefore, what they
are doing is illegal.

>>>Another anonymous individual on this list mailed me a copy of the demo a
few months ago. It's got a j-card covered with computer
printing of the song listing, with the title of the work. ("Kevin Moore -
Music Meant To Be Heard, Etc.") There is not a word of copywright
information on this thing.  It's a Maxell 90-minute cassette, with someone's
printout of the song list and title serving as a cover. It's a
copy. Not that I'm going to, but were I to make many many copies of an
UNcopywrighted piece of music, such as THIS TAPE, I could sell them for
profit. Is that illegal? Who would be guilty? Me or the person who mailed me
this tape and left out the copywright information? Or both of us?<<<

Yes, selling that tape would be illegal & you would be the guilty party
involved, unless the person who made your copy sold it to you also.  
There WAS copyright information on the original copies of the demos I sent to
the dub sites & they were asked to pass along the information (along w/the
lyric sheets) to the people who they made copies for, and then, in turn,
those people were to pass that information along to the people they made
tapes for, and so on.  Obviously, I can't "police" the entire world to keep
people from selling the demos, but when certain matters do come to my
attention (ie. someone e-mails me selling the demos for profit), I have every
right to do anything I possibly can to change that situation because Kevin is
not on-line to defend his rights himself.  In a nutshell, however, it doesn't
matter that the copy you received doesn't have copyright information on the
tape or the caseliner itself, because plainly & simply, the songs on the tape
ARE copywritten material, _period_, and you have absolutely no right to sell
that material without the written permission of the copyright holder.

>>>[flaming Andrew]  I'm not saying you asked them, but that is what I feel
would be a result of what you said.<<<

That may be what you personally feel, but as you said, that is NOT what I
asked them to do & I would hope that everyone here knows better than to flame
anyone unecessarily.  I am truly sorry that it made you feel that way though.

>>>It sure made me upset! I know if I were in this situation, I'd flame that
guy! I'd probably do other stuff, too! So again, I agree with you.<<<

Why did it make you so upset when, like you said, you felt that it really
didn't involve you?  Just because you felt that Andrew's rights were being
violated?

>>>But it is very rare that a flame is directed by anyone other that the
person writing it. It's not a dictated action, it just sort of happens when
people get angry. Ask me not to flame all you want, but if Frank or
SloppyJoe69 pop up again with still more gems of musical wisdom, I'll
probably say something of my own accord regardless of outside pleas.<<<

Well, I'm certainly glad that my personal threshold of anger is higher than
yours. :)  IMO Frank's & SloppyJoe69's posts were idiotic, and I typically
try to ignore posts made by idiots. :D

>>>Furthermore, if the only reason people got angry was because of direct
annoyances etc., no one would care about anyone else. This is untrue. I was
ready to blast Jeremy myself even tough he didn't screw me over, just from
what was written by everyone on this list.<<<

Well, this may be the way you feel when you see posts about these kinds of
things, but I personally do not react the same way, ie. want to flame someone
who has upset someone else or simply to "join the crowd" in flaming someone.
 I think that only each & every person here can speak for themselves in that
regard.  I hate to argue (can't you tell?haha) & to "take the time" to even
bother flaming someone seems like a total waste of energy to me.  I can't see
why people even do it in the first place, no matter what their reasoning may
be.  So, you see, you and I are not the same, my friend, but that's ok too.
:)

>>>[why should anyone here feel the responsibility to call Jeremy?]  Perhaps
to see if he exists before doing what they did.<<<

I believe Mike Burstin said that Jeremy changed his number, so posting his
old one didn't make much difference anyway.  But I'm not sure if you
understood what I originally meant.  I wasn't referring to his number being
posted on YJ, I was asking why, if Jeremy was the person who screwed all
these people out of tapes, should the people who were screwed have to call
HIM for an explanation??  HE should have been the one calling everyone else
to explain, the responsibility was always on his shoulders.  I'm not saying
that it's Jeremy's own fault his number was posted here or that doing so was
right, but I am saying that if he hadn't disappeared & had owned up to what
he did instead, I seriously doubt anyone would have posted his number in the
first place.

>>>All I know is someone put someone else's home phone number up on this
list, and didn't include the words, "I called and there was no answer. He
refused to talk to me. Maybe you can get through to him now that I have done
all in my power to connect."<<<

I agree with you, if that really was all that was done, posting his number
was not right.  But I don't really know the complete story behind what
happened.  As I said, I would never have done that myself, regardless of what
Jeremy had done.

>>>(and should you reply to all this crap, feel free to leave out my original
statements, your replies, AND my latest replies.)<<<

Uhh, sorry, but I had to leave your latest reply in there, otherwise my reply
would have made little sense. :)

>>>I know I will not comment on this discussion anymore, so yes, both of you
will have the last word in whatever you have to hit me with.  If anyone else
wishes to enter this open debate on Jeremy & Ross Wine Coolers, go ahead, but
as of this moment I'm out of it.<<<

Feel free to e-mail me privately with a reply then, if you wish. :)  I do
hope that this is the last of this particular issue we see on this list; I'm
sure everyone's getting a bit weary of it by now & I personally don't wish to
irritate all of you nice people any further. :)

Take care everyone,

Jennifer
<email_address_removed>

Q:  "If you could play for anyone in the history of the universe, made-up or
real, what would you play, for whom, and what shoes would you wear?"

A:  "Lucifer.  Penny Lane.  Flipflops."

-Tori Amos, Q&A at UCLA  2-27-95

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 00:21:41 -0500 (EST)
From: Krysten DeBroka <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Caught in a Web??
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>

I just saw a CD boot called Caught In a Web from 1994
and I was wondering if anyone knows when and where this
was recorded and if it is worth the $30 they wanted for it.
Thanks!

---Kryt
-- 
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
	Someone once told me that time is a predator that stalks us all
	our lives.  But maybe time is also a companion who goes with us
	on our journey, and reminds us to cherish the moments of our lives
	because they will never come again.  We are, after all, only mortal.
					- Captain Jean-Luc Picard
	"Live for yourself, there's no one more worth living for." - Rush
	"Choose to chance the rapids, and dare to dance the tides." - G. Brooks
--------------------------------------------------------------------------------
			email_address_removed


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 02:30:07 -0400
From: Bill Nottingham <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Subconscious
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>


Got it earlier this week, and, WOW!
Only packing up and moving has kept it out of the CD player.

Big thanks all around to Mike for all the work he's put into the project.
I'm curious as to if he's recieved any word from Mike P. & Kev about it,
and, if so, what.

Anyways, on with my revi^H^H^H^Hramblings.... listening as I type

1 - Eve - Spiffy.  My only previous encounter with it is on Kev's
demos.   The samples really do add a lot, and it's a much different
song than their usual repertoire - kinda like Another Day musically, but
with more keys.  The samples are from 'Portrait of an Artist' - who is
it though?

2 - ACOS.  Wow.  Wow.  Wow.  Wow.   Killer opening.  I can tell, however,
that this is a fairly early creation - it *sounds* more like something
off WDADU than either I&W or Awake.  Especially the intro.  James isn't
enunciating very well in the beginning.  Nice slow down - 'chill in 
November part'.  [6:39] - sounds like WDADU... then Erotomania, then 
something ~WDADU, then something new... love this instrumental section.
Mike's going mad...   [back to vocals]  Another slowdown... nice guitar
solo... reminiscent of part of Bombay Vindaloo.... then something like
the end of OAMOT... You know... it seems they don't do nearly as much speed
stuff anymore, IMO... or am I missing something... nice bass spot... wish
it were a little longer, or his mix more prominent.  Culminating in
big finish....  wow.  Wow.  An epic.  Don't understand why they haven't
released it yet.  Why isn't the applause louder???  :) 

3 - O Holy Night - Weird start.  Reminiscent of bonus track.  Sounds
like Charlie - sounds like some sort of Christmas album at the beginning,
until the drums/guitar/keys/bass really kick in.  Different than anything
else I've ever heard.   Nice adaptation though, - doesn't sound contrived.
Can't see them doing Frosty the Snowman, though.  

4 - Carry That Weight - Doesn't quite sound like Charlie... he does
a very good job here. (I'm not normally a big Charlie fan.)  He even
sounds a little like Paul in the quiet parts.  One of my favorites
on the CD - must be the Beatles fan in me.  Whoa - drum solo - weird.
They don't normally do that.  Kinda tame for MP, too.  Nice instrumental.

5 - Don't Look Past Me - What was that voice at the beginning?
Not to quibble, but, Mike - you have Jon Hendricks as the singer
in your writings about DLPM, but on the CD you have it as
John/Kev/Mike/John/Chris '89, - was Chris Jon's middle name, as
to avoid having three Jo(h)n's?   Don't really care for his singing
style, but it's a very nice song... like the keyboard work.

6 - WDOA - hehehehehehe... this song sucks. :)  Bon Jovi deserves
it.  I had to hear waaaaaaaay too much of them back in the old days.
Good thing Rich didn't try out for the vocalist spot.

7 - TLF - heard this first on the Lie single, the acoustic version
is a little different.  Nice guitar-keys interaction.  James does
sound like he's on helium, but I like what it's done to the melody.
It would be a damn good instrumental just by itself.  Weird ending -
sounds Tori-ish...

8 - Gorilla Session - Weird.  A very different sound for Petrucci.
Sounds like a cross between Hendrix's national anthem, and something
scraped off the end of disk 1 of _Time_Machine_.  Strange, but cool.

9 - Mission Impossible - This kicks.  JP is a madman.  Cool show, too.

10 - Back Pain Jam - Cool jam.  Nice noodling by JP... then Derek pops 
in.. a different soloing style than Kev, but I like it too.  JM kinda
seems a little lost in the mix, at least on the tape.  Hope Mike 
takes good care of his tape (or this CD) - this could definitely lend
itself to some new songs.  A different, mellower, more jazzified, DT.

11 - Awake Heavy Jam - I've noticed that (BP jam excluded) in the improv's
I hear, JP and Kev/Derek seem to start, and it's not until later that 
JM and Mike join in.  Nice ding-dong effect at the beginning.  Growing in
intensity... Mike *really* joins in, JP takes off... nice.

12 - Experimental - Little.  Acoustic.  Different.  Definite candidate
for song material - almost folksy in nature, tho.  Hey Mike - if it's
source is shrouded in mystery, where'd you get it from?  :)

13 - Tears - Cool.  A Rush song, and one I don't recall hearing before
(my Rush experience is mostly limited to radio - don't shoot me - please!)
Very nice.  Can't hear Geddy singing it, off the top of my head.  Calm,
sedate, but good.  Is the original this short?

14 - Winter - Whoa.  Tori.  Neat.  Freaked out one of my roomates, though -
"That's Tori!" "No, it's not." "Yes, it is."  "Well, it's a Tori song."
"Who's doing it?"  "Dream Theater."  "ACK!"  Ah, well, can't suit everyone.
James is really reaching for some of these notes.  A great song in the 
original, and also in the cover.  Don't see them doing 'Precious Things'
anytime soon.

15 - Mystery bonus track - You know, now that I think about it, it does
sound like some software company's opening music....

Ah, well, enough ramblings for one night....
Bill



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 03:46:23 -0500 (EST)
From: "Mark A. Parker" <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: YTSEJAM digest 812
Message-ID: <Pine.3.89.9505070352.B871-0100000@o231-11>

On Sat, 6 May 1995 ytsejam@arastar.com wrote:

> > I'd speed up the entire catalog to blipvert
> > proportions and let them slow it down from
> > the 45-sec compressed version when they get back home.
> that's the smartest one I've seen so far, and it misses the point 
> entirely. :)

damn straight ;)
Dom'ny


------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 01:53:02 PDT
From: email_address_removed (Dr. Mosh)
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: ROSS666/Jeremy (LONG!!!!!!!!!!!)
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>

Wow... she wasn't kidding when she said it would be LONG...

-The Doc

-- 
#$%*#$*@   REAL: email_address_removed + VIRTUAL: email_address_removed    *@#$*@#$
*$%&%#$* The Dream Theater Archives: ftp.netcom.com: /pub/dr/drkhoe/dt &*@#$*@$
**%^$#$%   WWW: "ftp://ftp.netcom.com/pub/dr/drkhoe/www/dthome.html"   #$**@#*$
*$*$*$*#      Reality Enhancement Software - Engineering Reality       *$&#*#@$



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 11:05:48 +0100 (BST)
From: Jeremy Longley <email_address_removed.ac.uk>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: More 6:00 bass
Message-ID: <message_id_removed.ac.uk>

OK, after hours (well a little while anyway) of hard work, here is the
bass tab for the 16 bar section which is the second half of the "inside
coming outside" section of 6:00

This is transcribed for a 4-string bass, as that's what I have..  I don't
think it would be much different for a 6-string - I'd probably only use
the C string for one or two notes. Anyway here it is (takes deep breath)...
 
G | ----------------|---------------|---------------|---------------|--
D | -7-5-7-5-7-5---7|5-7-5-7-5---5-7|8-9-7---7-5---5|7-6-7-5-7-8-7-5|--
A | -------------7--|----------5----|------7-----7--|---------------|--
E | -*-------*-----*|------*---*----|*-------*-----*|----*-----*----|--

G | ----------------|---------------|----7----------|---------------|--
D | -7-5-7-5-7-5---7|5-7-5-7-5---5-7|8-9---8-9-8-7-8|7-5-7-5-4-5-4-5|--
A | -------------7--|----------5----|---------------|---------------|--
E | -*-------*-----*|------*---*----|*-------*-----*|----*-----*----|--

G | ----------------|--7---9-7------|--------------7|----------7----|--
D | -7-5-7-5-7-5---8|7---8-----8-7--|8-9-8-7-9-8-7--|9-8-7-------9-8|--
A | -------------7--|-------------10|---------------|-----10-7------|--
E | -*-------*-----*|------*---*----|*-------*-----*|----*-----*----|--

G | ----------------|------9---7----|------7-9-7---7|6---6-4---3-2--|--
D | -7-8-7---7-----8|9-------------8|9-7-9-------9--|--7-----5-----5|--
A | ------10---9-10-|--7-10--7---7--|---------------|---------------|--
E | -*-------*-----*|------*---*----|*-------*-----*|----*-----*----|--

READING NOTES: the whole passage is consecutive quavers, so at least
there are no timing problems :).  However, Mike plays around with the
rhythm a bit, so a * marks places where the beat falls if you follow the
drum part.  

This is a nasty phrase, no doubt about it, and I find the first two bars of
the last line the hardest to get my brain around.  You can probably work out
some alternate fingerings if mine don't suit you.  I like sliding down
strings which is why I've fingered the last two bars this way.  One of many
alternatives might be:

G | --|------7-9-7---7|6---------------|--
D | --|9-7-9-------9--|--7-11-9---8-7--|--
A | --|---------------|--------10----10|--
E | --|*-------*-----*|----*------*----|--

Have fun with this one...  again I'd love to know how you play it, if you do
it differently, or if you think I've got any of it wrong (although I'm
_fairly_ confident :-).


Cheerz, Jezza
   _                _   jcl1008@        The way your heart sounds makes all
  (_)___ ________ _| |       cam.ac.uk  the difference; it's what decides if
  | / -_)_ /_ / _` |_|  Jeremy Longley  you'll endure the pain we all feel.
 _/ \___/__/__\__,_(_)  Selwyn College  The way your heart beats makes all
|__/                    Cambridge       The difference in learning to live.
^`'~*-,._.^`'~*-,._.^`'~*-,._.^`'~*-,._.^`'~*-,._.^`'~*    - Dream Theater.



------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 04:10:35 -0700 (MST)
From: Michael Bahr <email_address_removed>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Re: Subconscious
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>

> 5 - Don't Look Past Me - What was that voice at the beginning?
> Not to quibble, but, Mike - you have Jon Hendricks as the singer
> in your writings about DLPM, but on the CD you have it as
> John/Kev/Mike/John/Chris '89, - was Chris Jon's middle name, as
> to avoid having three Jo(h)n's?   Don't really care for his singing
> style, but it's a very nice song... like the keyboard work.

	It was my misteak. Jon Hendricks is the vocalist... :)

> 12 - Experimental - Little.  Acoustic.  Different.  Definite candidate
> for song material - almost folksy in nature, tho.  Hey Mike - if it's
> source is shrouded in mystery, where'd you get it from?  :)

	Even _I_ am not positive how it came to be. I had been _told_ 
that it was a tape of Petrucci warming up before a show, but after 
speaking to my source some more, it seems this is _Myung_! Yes, good old 
John Myung, our quiet, incredibly talented bassist, has done a little 
songwriting on the old acoustic. I wonder if it'll make the next album? 
The Em-G5-D-Am progression is interesting, and then it takes off into a 
psedo-BlackHoleSun part (same chords as the Juan Valdez beginning).

> 13 - Tears - Cool.  A Rush song, and one I don't recall hearing before
> (my Rush experience is mostly limited to radio - don't shoot me - please!)
> Very nice.  Can't hear Geddy singing it, off the top of my head.  Calm,
> sedate, but good.  Is the original this short?

	It was off the 2112 album (1976) and Rush themselves have never 
played it live. It's only about 3 minutes long, a touching, poignant piece.

	Thanks for your input, and for sharing your thoughts with the Jam!


Mike Bahr, email_address_removed



------------------------------

Date:     Sun,  7 May 95 17:26 +0300
From: Aviad Shkolnikov <email_address_removed.ac.il>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: A Dream Set for Dream Theater
Message-ID: <message_id_removed>

Yo People!
I've read a few articles about the perfect set of a DT concert. After
watching Megadeth and Therapy play for an hour-hour and a half, I was
surprised to watch Some of those "dream sets" went up to two hours and
beyond in length! C'mon people (I can only remember Bafu Vai right now)!
This band isn't a five album, multi-milion selling band like Metallica,
who can afford playing for two and a half hours...
Bye!
GrooveGun.

****************************************************************************
* "We went shoping for God,             * "Can't you see there's only      *
*     and got the God of Shoping..."    *      one me, and that me is me"  *
*                          Galiano      *                   Faith No More  *                                       *
*                       - Aviad Shkolnikov IS a cool name!                 *
****************************************************************************

------------------------------

Date: Sun, 7 May 1995 16:37:50 +0100 (BST)
From: Bean <email_address_removed.ac.uk>
To: email_address_removed
Subject: Moore Dub Site
Message-ID: <message_id_removed.ac.uk>

Please note that I have a new email address for my UK dub site.
It is no longer email_address_removed.ac.uk

Please now use...

email_address_removed.ac.uk

-- 
 ____
|  _ \                     
| |_) | ___   __ _ _ __    Email: email_address_removed.ac.uk
|  _ \ / _ \ / _` | '_ \          
| |_) |  __/| (_| | | | |    WWW: http://spodbox.ehche.ac.uk/~bean
|____/ \___| \__,_|_| |_|         


------------------------------

Date:        Sun, 07 May 95 11:37:01 EST
From: "Brian          J.        Wherry" <WB81%email_address_removed>
To: <email_address_removed>
Subject: 7 string in Scarred?
Message-ID:  <07MAY95.12546386.0017.MUSIC@LAFAYACS>

-Concerning which tunes off of Awake John uses a 7 string on, I think he
may have used it on Scarred.

I was playing along with it a few times, figuring it out and whatnot,
and in the one verse section that has the heavy 3/4 (and then the
measure of 4/4) rhythm beneath it, I found myself needing to play a low
C5. The riff centers on F#5, and pretty much goes between F#5 and E5.
One of the "endings" goes from E5 to C5 (lower than I could get on my
six-string). I tried playing C5/G and the higher version of C5 (as if JP
was playing one of them, and JM was the one playing the low C), but it
still doesn't sound right. I think it must be the 7-string!!

Ibanez needs to make TWO JP signature guitars!!!! I want one!!!

Later, 'jammers

Brian



------------------------------

End of YTSEJAM Digest 814
*************************